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Author Topic: Hard as hell  (Read 1374 times)

Offline DANA HOLMAN

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Hard as hell
« on: September 02, 2010, 08:55:00 PM »
Ok guys I'm really confused about annealing spring steel. I have one knife forged from 5160 spring steel. First time I  had brought it up to around 1500 degrees and let it set in the forge over night to cool. Second time back to nonmagnetic and put it a bucket of lime and it was there for two days. This is the hardest steel I have ever seen. So can someone tell me where I'm going wrong
thanks
Dana
"When Satan is knocking at your door,
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Offline Steve Nuckels

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Re: Hard as hell
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2010, 09:30:00 PM »
Hummm....  I just started a project using 5160!

Wish I could help!

Wait til you try Cru-V   :banghead:  

Steve
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Potomac Forge

Offline tippit

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Re: Hard as hell
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2010, 09:41:00 AM »
If it's 5160, it should soften up even by just normalizing it a couple of times.  I'll it bring up to non-magnetic/air cool, bring up to below non-magnetic/air cool maybe couple of times and it is soft enough to file & drill.  Can you drill through it after you being it lime for a slow cool?  

Lin, Karl, or some others can probaly figure it out...but it doesn't sound like 5160.  Doc
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Offline skullworks

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Re: Hard as hell
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2010, 03:44:00 PM »
I don't know much but it almost sounds like some kind of air hardening steel.
Lin...Karl?????
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Offline Lin Rhea

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Re: Hard as hell
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2010, 04:09:00 PM »
Dana,
      It dont sound like 5160. Do you have any more info on it? Lin
"We dont rent pigs." Augustus McCrae
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Offline sticshooter

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Re: Hard as hell
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2010, 04:31:00 PM »
What does it sound like Lin? I did a blade from a plowshare that did the same thing. I then just got it a dark orange and let it cool. It was still kinda hard but i could work it and drill it.<><
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Offline Lin Rhea

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Re: Hard as hell
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2010, 06:24:00 PM »
5160 can air harden. But, if you are taking steps to soften it, albiet it's not a true anneal, it should be soft enough to work. Are you trying to file it Dana?
"We dont rent pigs." Augustus McCrae
ABS Master Bladesmith
TGMM Family of the Bow
Dwyer Dauntless longbow 50 @ 28
Ben Pearson recurve 50 @ 28
Tall Tines Recurve 47@28
McCullough Griffin longbow 43@28

Offline DANA HOLMAN

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Re: Hard as hell
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2010, 10:24:00 PM »
Lin
this is the steel Jeremy sent some guys to make knife and other stuff in his shop. I thought he said it was a leafspring from a international truck. I forged it into a knife but I can not grind it. It's got my head spining
thank for any info
Dana
"When Satan is knocking at your door,
Simply say,

 "Jesus, could you get that for me?"

Offline tippit

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Re: Hard as hell
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2010, 07:40:00 AM »
Dana,
If that was the same steel I got from Jeremy, it forged, ground, quenched, and temper just like 5160 for me.  I must have gotten a spring from a Smart car while you got the Mack truck spring  :biglaugh:  Doc

 

 
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Offline Lin Rhea

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Re: Hard as hell
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2010, 09:13:00 AM »
Dana,
      You probably know this, but I have to cover all of the bases. The lime is just an insulator and dont affect the steel except holding the heat in the piece. This is your goal, to hold the heat in and let it cool slowly, as slow as possible. Try this, take two pieces of steel (mild steel is fine) and put one on each side of your blade making a sandwich. Tie it with something like heavy steel wire, but avoid non ferrous wires. Bring it all up to nonmagnetic (be careful not to get it too hot)and while hot get it into the lime or leave it in the forge (turn it off)and shut the openings and the fan off quickly. Let it sit for several hours till you can hold it in your hand. Wait at least 6 hours even though this is not a true anneal, if this dont show a significant difference, I doubt you have 5160.

By the way, what belts and grinder are you using to grind? Lin
"We dont rent pigs." Augustus McCrae
ABS Master Bladesmith
TGMM Family of the Bow
Dwyer Dauntless longbow 50 @ 28
Ben Pearson recurve 50 @ 28
Tall Tines Recurve 47@28
McCullough Griffin longbow 43@28

Offline Wampus

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Re: Hard as hell
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2010, 09:24:00 AM »
Karl had some good posts on O1 and 5160 a while ago in this thread:   http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=110;t=001843

He talks about spherodizing just the area you want to drill with a torch.  
The way I do the whole blade is to put it in my pottery kiln at about 1250 degrees for an hour and then turn it off to slow cool.  CruforgeV and old sawmill blades work pretty easy after that treatment and it doesn't grow the grain.

Offline DANA HOLMAN

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Re: Hard as hell
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2010, 10:29:00 AM »
Lin
I'll try it today, the belt sanders I have is a 2x42 craftsman and a 1 x 30 grizzly. Tried it with a 80 and 50 grit belt.
Thanks again
Dana
"When Satan is knocking at your door,
Simply say,

 "Jesus, could you get that for me?"

Offline Lin Rhea

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Re: Hard as hell
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2010, 10:44:00 AM »
Dana,
      Pick a spot on the blade that needs removal and grind enough of the scale off to reach it with a file. See if it will cut with a file. If it will, it's plenty soft enough to shape with a grinder. You may have to be patient with that small a grinder.
"We dont rent pigs." Augustus McCrae
ABS Master Bladesmith
TGMM Family of the Bow
Dwyer Dauntless longbow 50 @ 28
Ben Pearson recurve 50 @ 28
Tall Tines Recurve 47@28
McCullough Griffin longbow 43@28

Offline Jeremy

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Re: Hard as hell
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2010, 01:09:00 PM »
The steel I sent out was all from the same leaf spring of an old international truck.  It seems to be pretty close to 5160.  Sounds like you're either not getting it up to critical (or are there long enough) to get everything into solution or a cooling it off to quickly.  

Scale on the outside can be pretty tough to get through.
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Offline Lin Rhea

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Re: Hard as hell
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2010, 01:34:00 PM »
Yep. It sounds that way to me too Jeremy. In fact Dana, if you're going straight to your grinder with scale on it, you are needlessly wearing out your belts. Get a side grinder to remove the scale I use a metal cutting wheel and change to a flapper wheel. Or soak the blade in muratic over night before grinding. Scale is hard enough to mess up a file.
"We dont rent pigs." Augustus McCrae
ABS Master Bladesmith
TGMM Family of the Bow
Dwyer Dauntless longbow 50 @ 28
Ben Pearson recurve 50 @ 28
Tall Tines Recurve 47@28
McCullough Griffin longbow 43@28

Offline DANA HOLMAN

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Re: Hard as hell
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2010, 03:02:00 PM »
I think I will try that before I reanneal. You got it right about the scale, I've been taking it stright to the belt grinder. I'll let you know how comes out
Dana
"When Satan is knocking at your door,
Simply say,

 "Jesus, could you get that for me?"

Offline LONGBOWKID

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Re: Hard as hell
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2010, 11:39:00 PM »
Dana,

 I also got the same package from Jeremy. (Which reminds me I need to finish it up.)I just started a nice hot charcoal fire, tossed in the spring and let it sit till the next day and it was soft as butter. I will say that it was NOT easy to forge a blade out of, that is some TOUGH stuff. But, I didnt have any issues in annealing. Hope this helps, good luck buddy!

Kid
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Offline kbaknife

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Re: Hard as hell
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2010, 09:41:00 AM »
Dana, I've been off on a canoe trip for a while or I would have helped you right away.
Pardon me for saying something - you said, "This is the hardest steel I have ever seen".
I hope not.
Your steel should be getting a LOT! harder when you harden your blades - right?
This is 5160, a very deep hardening steel, with a long time for martensite creation.
Jeff answered your question right in the third post.
If you bring 5160 up ABOVE! non-magnetic, and let it slow cool, it'll harden.
Not as hard as it might be if you quenched it in the proper oil, but it will air-harden due to all the chromium.
You will want to do this, like Jeff says, at least once after forging, because you always want your first post-forging thermal cycle done at your forging temps.
Maybe twice.
But see where Jeff says, "bring up to below non-magnetic/air cool maybe couple of times".
That's the method - "BELOW" non-mag.
That way, you are not making any austenite by going ABOVE critical.
Martensite won't form while cooling from a temp that is not above critical - you'll get pearlite.
Do it in a dark room and just bring your steel up to a dark red and a magnet still sticks and let cool.
Do a few times.
Sticking it in a bucket of lime for 2 seconds, 2 minutes or two days doesn't accomplish anything after going above non-magentic other than making your steel hard, if it's a deep hardening steel.
We toss this word "anneal" around way too loosely.
There's more than one type of annealing.
Lot's of guys stick their blades in the forge and let them cool in there, and that's just bad news.
Especially if it's a steel with more than .84% Carbon.
A person should NEVER! slow cool a steel that has more carbon than .84% from above non-magnetic.
And it's not a good idea to do it with steel below that much carbon, unless you WANT! martensite - like you'll get in 5160/O1/L6/52100.
When the last deer disappears into the morning mist,
When the last elk vanishes from the hills,
When the last buffalo falls on the plains,
I will hunt mice for I am a hunter and I must have my freedom.
Chief Joseph

Offline DANA HOLMAN

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Re: Hard as hell
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2010, 12:26:00 PM »
Karl and kid
thanks for the info. I had started on it and ran out of propane. I've got more now.
Karl that's what I was doing taking it to nonmagentic and in the lime for overnight cooling. I be back in the shop this afternoon and try again
thank again for your help
Dana
"When Satan is knocking at your door,
Simply say,

 "Jesus, could you get that for me?"

Offline kbaknife

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Re: Hard as hell
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2010, 12:43:00 PM »
You just want dull red.
Do NOT go above non-mag.
Then just let it air cool.
Do that three or four times.
When the last deer disappears into the morning mist,
When the last elk vanishes from the hills,
When the last buffalo falls on the plains,
I will hunt mice for I am a hunter and I must have my freedom.
Chief Joseph

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