das risers

[jrchambers]

i dont think i understand the value of these risers.  the price is outrageous,  i understand the money for the limbs but the riser,  IMO if you are going to fork out $$$ there should be a level of artwork involved.  Although i would love to get my left hand wraped around one someday.  If you think different please explain, help me understand.  are they mass produced or custom?

[Bill Carlsen]

It has to do with the engineering, making and altering prototypes, quality of the materials, quality of the anodizing and precision with which these risers are made. Dave Soza is a true engineer and nothing he does or any of the materials he uses are under par. In fact, IMO, he often overbuilds his risers just so that the quality and value of them will endure.

[kawika b]

Art is in the eye of the beholder. What looks plain to one may look unique to another. That said, I don't think the Das riser is overpriced. Bear T/D risers go for $599 at 3R's. Which for some people would be "just wood".

[insttech1]

I agree with all of what Bill says.  My only exception point is the price now demanded by 3Rivers for the Dalaa riser, which is not the space-age aluminum derivative used in the Master Hunter or original series; it is, I believe, an industry-standard 6061 derivative, and even with the anodizing (which is quite nice), is understandably hard to initially justify $500 or $560 for just the riser.

It will, however, be absolutely bulletproof, well made, well thought out, and well engineered.  They have an intrinsic balance, inherent accuracy and mass damping effect, and are not stamped/cast like some cheap $100-$150 ILF risers on the market.

They are "custom engineered", and produced on a high-tolerance CNC machine.  David does everything on his own as far as machining; I do not know if he ships out for anodizing, but I believe he does.

He had some other economical risers planned, but they have been postponed for the time being.

Take Care,
Marc

[jrchambers]

i did not know these things,  a bear riser goes for that much?

[insttech1]

Yes, prices for "factory" bows in general...Bear, Martin, PSE, etc...have gone up some 20 to 40% over the last 36 months, with the highest increases happening over the last 18 months.

Just a few years ago, when I looked at Martin Hatfield takedowns, they could be had in the mid-$400 range; now the MSRP is closed to $800, I believe...and a new Bear take-down will cost you as much as a Morrison custom...

Even Bob Lee bows had a plaque on their display two days ago in Kalamazoo, and I quote:
"THERE WILL BE A 10% PRICE INCREASE AS OF FEBRUARY 1ST".

[insttech1]

So let it suffice to say that the DAS products are not necessarily "outrageously" priced...even though the 3Rivers pricing for the Dalaa is, in my personal opinion, on the high side...when taken as a whole considering the limbs.

Unfortunately for them, from a marketing standpoint, based on their limb-only price, they have no choice but to start the risers at a minimum of $500 a piece...since the combo with limbs/riser is just over $800.  

Perhaps a better way to look at it is they are "expensive"...and retain the quality inherent to the term.

Now if another bow is nearly $1000, and doesn't have the pretty wood quality of the custom, or the bulletproof shootability/accuracy of the DAS, well then that price is "outrageous".

Take Care,
Marc

[jrchambers]

true, im just thinking that if you are going to fork out some coin you could have a footed blacktail where you can tell some one has put hard devoted hours in beauty and preformance and has done these things as you personaly have specified.  im shure das does the same things i just cant tell,  i may be a bit stuck on good looks, but i belive thats a big part of traditional bows, they are ment to be lookers.

[R H Clark]

I had a beautiful custom $975 recurve.It had really nice swirl grain wood and a flawless finish.Then I got a Dalaa on a deal with a friend.It took about 8 months but I sold my beautiful custom that I couldn't shoot nearly as well as the Dalaa.

[Naphtali]

Originally posted by jrchambers:
[QB] i dont think i understand the value of these risers.  the price is outrageous, . . .

I do not agree with those who attempt to justify price of a DAS riser with engineering. Their prices are an example of the market economy working.

David sets a selling price for his Master Hunter -- and waits. If people buy them as quickly as he can make them, more or less, he may have priced them correctly. Or they may be underpriced. If he raises his price, and continues to sell them as quickly as he can make them, more or less, they may still be underpriced. He may nickel-dick with price until he finds the number where he begins to have surplus inventory. This is the place where he backs off a smidgen, or accepts a slight inventory. . . . And this number is what they are worth.

What I attempted to show by example is that a product or service has no intrinsic value. It has value only to the extent people are willing to fork over the bucks to obtain it. And if regardless of price not enough people fork over the bucks for a profitable transaction series -- think of the American automobile industry -- that, too, identifies what the item is worth.

Additional nearly perfect examples of this, in my opinion, are: prices for Randall made knives; prices for paintings; and prices for jewelry diamonds.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

[insttech1]

I agree Napthali...with the addition that 3Rivers is now controlling the pricing, and the exclusive rights to the Dalaa, and have priced it accordingly.

Unfortunately, at least in my opinion, due to the late addition of selling risers as a stand-alone product, they are now priced in a range that is prohibitive to many prospective buyers.

$550 to $600+ (with tax/shipping) is a lot to shell out to the uninitiated (or the experienced, for that matter) based on word-of-mouth about performance, at least for the riser alone.

[Naphtali]

Originally posted by insttech1:
. . . Unfortunately, at least in my opinion, due to the late addition of selling risers as a stand-alone product, they are now priced in a range that is prohibitive to many prospective buyers.

Unh-unh-unh. The marketplace will shriek at 3Rivers if the price is too high for them to sell everything they get from David in a timely way.

However, if you are correct that people who want the product choose not to buy -- regardless of reason -- knockoffs enter the market. Wal-Mart-Red China makes a living doing this. And I believe David has spawned knockoffs by way of Lancaster Archery??

[insttech1]

Yes he has, and they are (or were, until this month) 20 to 25% cheaper.

I.E. the riser alone is/was $400, and it has gone up to $450 this month.

[JohnV]

Let us not forget that the people who make and sell bows do so for a living, just as the rest of us sell our skills for a salary.  None of us work for free so I don't understand the concept that some have that bowyers should sell their products with little if any profit just so the bow will be cheaper for you to buy.  If a bow is priced to high, it won't sell...at least not enough that the bowyer can make a living doing it.  I don't know of any bowyer who has gotten rich off their trade.

[Jaeger]

Naphtali,

Just for the record, the LAS Titan is no more a cheap Chinese knock-off of the DAS than a Kabekona is a knock off of a Shrew.

It has a number of unique features and design differences and is made in the USA. Think of it as a product improvement. As with any product improvement, some will appreciate the differences, some won't.

The DAS is a fantastic riser and if it works well for you and you like it then I guess it's worth the money. I love metal riser recurves.

[insttech1]

Jaeger--where does Samick have a US production facility?

(And this is not a post about the quality of the Titan; it is a question about Samick.  I believe they only have facilities in Korea, and a contractual deal with a Chinese firm to manufacture limbs and risers).

Thanks,
Marc

[insttech1]

Oh yes...one more thing:

The marketplace IS shrieking; as evidenced by this very post.

All the rest about inordinate pricing have been deleted.

[hawksnest]

Originally posted by insttech1:
Jaeger--where does Samick have a US production facility?

(And this is not a post about the quality of the Titan; it is a question about Samick.  I believe they only have facilities in Korea, and a contractual deal with a Chinese firm to manufacture limbs and risers).

Thanks,
Marc

I think if you read Jaeger's post, he refers to the Titan riser being made in the US.  Samick, as well as the DAS limbs, are not. The Pinnacle riser, made of wood, is made by Samick, and is a really nicely made, and good shooting , riser. Bill G.

[insttech1]

That IS what I'm asking; the Titan may be a US engineered product; however, to the best of my understanding, it is still manufactured by Samick, as well as the Pinnacle, neither of which are produced in the US.

If that is not correct, I simply wish to know where the riser is being made, simply out of curiosity sake, not as a means to bash its source or its quality.

And by the way, I shoot Samick ILF limbs.

Thanks,
Marc

[MikeC]

Originally posted by jrchambers:
i dont think i understand the value of these risers.  the price is outrageous,  i understand the money for the limbs but the riser,  IMO if you are going to fork out $$$ there should be a level of artwork involved.

This is where I disagree with many.  A bow that is purchased to be used in the field is a "tool" first "art" second.  Fancy wood and contrasting woods are worth nothing in a stand or blind.  The DAS Riser was built to be the finest/strongest/most adjustable user friendly hunting riser money can buy and it is.  You either appreciate it for what it is or move on, pretty simple.  $$ for $$ for what it was designed and constructed for it is the finest riser available today.

More work and precision goes into making a DAS Riser than any wooden bow regardless of the level of "artwork".