Damascus Questions

[gudspelr]

As it seems many are, I am quite fascinated with the many patterns that bladesmiths make with Damascus.  I'm very fond of what I've seen termed "Turkish Damascus", and "Explosion Pattern".  I've seen Rodrigo Sfreddo knives with that type of pattern as well as a possible favorite, "Merovingian Pattern", of which his M.S. Quillion Dagger was made.  I've done some internet searching on the process for making these patterns and haven't found much that was very detailed.  I was wondering if anyone here had any experience with those mentioned or knew of a resource I could look to for more information?  Also, I like the more contrasting dark/light of damascus blades, like in the St. Jude's collaboration knife.  Am I correct in that being achieved through the use of particular steel combinations (like O1/15N20)?  Thanks


Jeremy

[Lin Rhea]

The St Jude's knife blade is forged from pattern welded 1084 and 15N20.

As for the other subject, what you are discussing are/is some of the best damascus makers in the world. So, you are asking for someone to explain a pretty complicated process. At one point Rodrigo had some detailed steps in the process posted on his website, but I think he has since removed it. I can only assume that he would rather not divulge his trade secrets after single handedly developing the process. There is nothing wrong with that. I will speak in generalities though. Each of these patterns you mentioned has very particular steps and stages which takes days sometimes to make a single blade.
     I myself tried to show the process of making the St Jude's blade in the the thread about it. The process is comparitively simple when you look at some, but any damascus blade that is successfully welded and made into a good knife is an accomplishment. There is no room for any lack of concentration.

[Doug Campbell]

A couple years ago I attended a seminar given by Tom Ferry who is one of the best there is at "exotic" damascus patterns. He explained a couple of the patterns he's developed by illustrating on a dry erase board. I was completely lost after the second or third transition of doing this to achieve that in another transition or two... The steps some of these guys go thru to get a pattern is incredible. Like Lin says it sometimes takes days to make the steel for a single blade. Bottom line even if a fellow knew what he was doing it would be very tough to detail here.

[gudspelr]

Thanks Lin-I can appreciate a maker wanting to keep part of what makes their knives unique to themselves. As for the St. Judes blade it seems like there is a lot more contrast (dark vs light) than other damascus blades of the same material that I've seen. Is that a result then of a different etchant/longer etch? By the way-saw a knife during my searches that you collaborated on with Rodrigo-REALLY nice. Thanks again.

Doug-I'm starting to understand more of what you're talking about as a little confusing to try and explain as I search more about it. Thanks for the reply.

Jeremy

[Lin Rhea]

Yes, Brion Tomberlin and I collaborated with Rodrigo. It was pretty exciting.
 

[kbaknife]

Originally posted by gudspelr:
.....As for the St. Judes blade it seems like there is a lot more contrast (dark vs light) than other damascus blades of the same material that I've seen. Is that a result then of a different etchant/longer etch?

Jeremy

Jeremy, I did the heat treating and etching on that blade. That blade was etched  - I think - four times for 15 minutes each time.
As the 1084 etches, it literally gets eaten away by the FeCl, and the oxide residue remains attached to the blade.
If they were allowed to remain on the blade, it would actually create a barrier and the FeCl would no longer be able to etch the steel.
So, between each etch, the oxides are scrubbed off with steel wool.
I had just mixed up a new batch of etchant, so it was performing its task quite well.
On the last etch cycle, I simply left the oxides on the steel without scrubbing them off.
The manganese in 1084 tends to etch quite black.
Then, oil it a little bit and it looks even blacker.
Some of the guys will etch their blades and even buff them after, which has its own unique appearance and is quite beautiful.
Others even hot-blue the blades, and then sand the bluing off of the higher 15N20, which leaves the lower layers of 1084 black-black.
And then, different layer counts and percentage of this to that, and every blade can look different.
Damascus truly is quite a canvas for knifemaking "art".

[Bobby Urban]

As an amature "hack" with the same facination as the rest of us here with damascus I have had some success welding up billets and have done a little research on the experts techniques.  My conclusion to this point in my skill set is that damascus is very challenging and you risk "cold Shuts" and "inclusions" every time you fold the steel.  So even when you get a perfect first weld on you billet you risk ruining it with the first fold by having some slag or gaps not welding and leaving cold shuts.  Start adding mutiple folds, twists and combining multiple billets....  You can see where a lot of really good work can become worthless in a hurry.  

I believe using a hydrolic press would greatly improve the chance of success with any damascus(forge welding) and therefore limit the falures in multi folds, etc.  That said, I have not tried it yet.  I do have access to some big presses so it is in my future.  

I find forge welding to be a bit of chemistry, a lot of skill, tons of experience and a little luck(more weight on the luck if you are lacking in the other three like me)

I can get almost anything to stick but when grinding I usually find a few small cold shuts and certainly have tons of room for improvement.  

All my welded blades have been from "junk yard" steel that often has to be forged and ground flat prior to welding and I plan to buy some known steel in flat stock to help improve my original lay-up.  I am certain this will dramatically improve my welding skills.  Flat, smooth and clean seems to be paramount.

Not sure if any of that helps but my best advice from limited experience is to just go for it and try to get some steel to stick together.  Maybe start with a relatively simple san mai blade and then go from there.  Don't get fooled by the forge Gods like I did though.  My first attempt was a 100+ layer, multi folded blade from band saw blades, binding strap and lawnmower blade steel.  It turned out great!!  I thought, "huh, nothing to this?" - Jokes on me.  After many failed attempts later with a few successes mixed in I am still scratching my head more times than smiling.  When it all come together it feels like magic - really rewarding to get one done.

Bob Urban

[kbaknife]

Bobby, you've just described in detail why it is not a good idea to "fold" the billet.
Do your weld.
Draw it out.
Flatten.
Secure in a tight fixture and grind the steel clean and flat.
Cut into equal sized pieces.
Re-stack.
Re-weld.
Repeat.
That way, each weld is accomplished on clean flat pieces, just like the first weld.
In fact, if you have a beginning stack of, say, 10-12 pieces, when you draw out and grind, cut and re-stack, there are actually fewer surfaces to successfully weld on successive welds, making the FIRST weld the most critical, with the highest chance of failure.
regardless of how many layers you have, just try to stack all the odds in your favor and keep everything clean and flat, with freshly ground surfaces.
As time goes by, you'll have more and more time and investment of labor, fuel, steel, etc. put into that billet so your losses become more expensive.
Last thing you want is a problem with your billet right at the end.
Keep all your bases covered, no matter what.

[gudspelr]

Great advice, and thanks for explaining the etch on the blade you did, Karl-makes sense.

Bobby-Your post made me smile and I can imagine being a frustrated guy depending on how I tried to do some of this   .  The more research I'm doing, I'm wondering if I might not try and do a San Mai blade to get my feet wet, although it seems to have some of its own challenges while welding up and forging...  I guess it's like Lin said "any damascus blade that is successfully welded and made into a good knife is an accomplishment."  I'll probably just be thrilled if I can get 2 pieces of metal to stick to each other.

Jeremy

[GO Rogers]

WOW.......♠

[Lin Rhea]

[2treks]

That is amazing!

[razorback]

Lin that is amazing. Almost seems like you are showing off        
My question is, when you get a pattern like that how much is design and how much is "lets see what we've got" after the etch.

[Lin Rhea]

It's always interesting to see the results, but there is a high degree of predictability. The consistancy of the pattern is intentional. Thanks

[kbaknife]

I always love how the false edge looks on a laddered Ws.

[akaboomer]

I know my skill set, or lack there of, is not up to the task. Let alone my meager equipment. I am hopefull that in the future I will be able to accomplish such artistic knives. Its astounding what can be done.

Chris