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Author Topic: Guard fitting issue  (Read 867 times)

Offline Scott Roush

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Guard fitting issue
« on: May 21, 2011, 04:31:00 PM »
I have a file guide that I've been using that I bought from Texas Knife Supply and I'm tired of fighting an issue that I've somehow decided to live with... but shouldn't.

When I file the tang to fit a guard, I always have a high spot between the top and bottom of the ricasso (is that clear??) causing it not to sit flush.  This only happens when I'm undercutting the ricasso rather than doing those nice fits that Karl does.  I've been having issues with my mill lately that prevent me from doing that way very easily.  Anyway... whenever I try to file the shoulders flush with the guide, the top and bottom (spine and choil?) are always lower...

If anybody can decipher what I just wrote, I would love a pointer on this.  Guard fitting continues to be my greatest nemesis.

Offline Steve Nuckels

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Re: Guard fitting issue
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2011, 05:09:00 PM »
Scott, if I'm reading correctly, I too have a simular issue, both sides of the under cut are not square for the guard! I guess my guard stock may not be dead flat!!!

I cannot remember where I bought my file guide, it may have been the same place!  I did not pay over $100 for mine, I have been chalking it up to the guide not square.  With a little tweeking I manage to make it work.  I have been considering getting the guide from "Uncle Al" it is pricey, I figure in most cases you do get what you pay for!

 http://www.riversidemachine.net/item576493.ctlg

I will follow this thread to see what solutions are discussed before I pay the piper!

Steve
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Potomac Forge

Offline Scott Roush

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Re: Guard fitting issue
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2011, 05:14:00 PM »
Next guide I get will the be the Riverside.. but I don't think it's my guide. It's me I'm pretty sure... just haven't figured out what to do differently other than NOT file flush..

You know what brought this up? Claudio-Cas's last post on Blade.  His guard has the same tell tale gap...

Offline Kevin Evans

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Re: Guard fitting issue
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2011, 05:39:00 PM »
Scott I went and looked at Claudio knife I think you are refering to the gap top and bottom.
I will try to help knowing Karl doesn't do his that way(or he would help) ,Doug and Lin will correct me if I'm wrong.
That gap top and bottom is not from the ends being lower,its that the sides are not cut down enough.IMHO
I had a carbon one from Al's and was having trouble getting the (so Called) perfect fit
I called him and had him send me another .Well the guide was fine it was me.Called Lin and he helped me figure it out,so my turn to help.
Some of the things that helped me

Do your filing in like a circular motion around the corners, this will help it from digging in.

Go Slow!!!!!

Don't tighten guide  no tighter than nessasary

When just about finished get a brand new file out and give it some light strokes ,you will be amazed at what it takes off.

Put 400 grit paper on FLAT stock and sand it

Next you are ready to put presision sqare on the sides and end and see if its perfectly flat ,perfectly flat,perfectly flat,if its not keep working on it and whatever you do don't give in!!!Don't be satisfied  for that oughta work, feel very good about it before taking guide off
 That part will probally be good enough and I also sand guard flat on a piece of granite.When finised put calibers on each end and hope its within .001

Scott don't get me wrong I am no professonial,its just that if I try that hard most of them work
Looking forward with talking with you in Atlanta Kevin

Offline kbaknife

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Re: Guard fitting issue
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2011, 06:31:00 PM »
First thing I would say is don't get discouraged.
Every step gets better as it is repeated over and over.
I've seen Kevin's guards and they're about seamless, so you'd do good to heed his advice.
Go slow. Don't get in a  hurry. And make sure you're DONE!! before you pull that guide off.
I don't know if Kevin told me or maybe Lin, but it's some of the best advice I've received on filing:
use your basic bastard files to remove about 98.5% of your material.
Then, keep a designated file only for FINISHING! that last little bit.
Even when you think you're already done, a new, sharp file will continue to remove material you didn't know was there.
I use a wide, flat, fine SINGLE CUT file.
Here's something else I noticed when I file Damascus shoulders:
try to only cut INTO the side of the shoulders up on top and bottom. If you're hogging off material with a coarse cut bastard file, and you cut all the way down to the carbide guide, it can actually dig out and pull material off the side that is BELOW the carbide face of the guide! And that will create a gap.
That's why you don't go all the way with the coarse file.
Then, like Kevin said, just go slow with the sharp file, until you're SURE you're finished.
Not just until you THINK you're finished.
Do you radius the top and bottom of your guard slot?
See up there at the top of that guard?
A little gap.
That's when I was filing ALL the way down with the coarse file and it actually pulled material off BELOW the carbide face of the guide.
I try not to do that anymore.

 

 
When the last deer disappears into the morning mist,
When the last elk vanishes from the hills,
When the last buffalo falls on the plains,
I will hunt mice for I am a hunter and I must have my freedom.
Chief Joseph

Offline DANA HOLMAN

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Re: Guard fitting issue
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2011, 06:45:00 PM »
Scott, I've had the same problem from time to time, I'm going to try it kevins way. I've always taken a 4 sided needle file and this always gets it done, hope it helps
Dana
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Simply say,

 "Jesus, could you get that for me?"

Offline Doug Campbell

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Re: Guard fitting issue
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2011, 08:38:00 PM »
There ya go, finish with a sharp fine file and when you think, "that's good enough" go around it one more time for good measure. After a while that little extra effort will come natural... Patience Grasshopper...  ;)

Oh and   :thumbsup:    :thumbsup:  for Uncle Al's carbide guide. I actually use my belt grinder to "hog" off material right against the carbide then fine tune.
Life is wonderful in Montana!!
"BEING CHALLENGED IN LIFE IS INEVITABLE. BEING DEFEATED IS OPTIONAL."
ABS Journeyman Knifesmith

Offline kuch

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Re: Guard fitting issue
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2011, 09:01:00 PM »
E-mail sent scott

Offline Scott Roush

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Re: Guard fitting issue
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2011, 09:17:00 PM »
Thanks folks.. I see a turning point on the horizon. I knew this group would be the place to ask....

I do indeed use a rough bastard all the way down, then spend hours trying to get things back with jeweler's files.

Offline Steve Nuckels

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Re: Guard fitting issue
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2011, 10:48:00 PM »
Scott, I was having a heck of a time finding a proper fit until I radiused the top of the guard slot like Karl showed, then it fit.  I guess that's what I ment by "tweeked".

Scott, do you use JB weld or solder?  I like JB!

This forum is a great resource for sure!

Steve
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Potomac Forge

Offline Lin Rhea

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Re: Guard fitting issue
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2011, 08:38:00 AM »
There has been some excellent points brought up about this problem area. It's also a good subject for the obsessive type, so I lke it a lot.

I have a had this problem and it aint fun. In my opinion it is a number of small errors that add up. That's why all of the above tips are good. But, I believe there is one or two that has not been mentioned.

The big one is hard to describe without a chalk board to exaggerate and make my point. Notice the picture below.
     

The file guide is clamped onto the ricasso pretty snug, naturally, to hold steady for the filing of the shoulders. It has guid pins and screws to close it and to keep things lined up. Right? Well, yes, but here is the problem. The guid pins can only help. The object it's clamped to must be parallel to make the thing work right. If not the upper flats where the file rides are no longer parallel with each other , because the guide pins can only do so much and then they flex when the guide is clamped against the ricasso. This does one of two things. It ridges up at the blade or it valleys at the blade. Now when you start filing, changing directions of the cut, you get differences in elevation on your cuts. That is one obvious problem that can be fixed by checking the ricasso and work it toward parallel as you finish. Karl does an excellent job of this  as he has described his method here before.

Another thing is the way we use our files. I'm right handed so I favor using a particular side, or to be more exact, a particular corner of the file. This corner gets more use whether I am hogging and whether I have it flipped over. The other two corners are relatively fresh and sharp. I have long since started hogging the prefered direction, getting it as close as I can, then turning everything around where I can access things with the other file corners and give the last few strokes from that direction. I usually can feel some more material being removed when I do this. I then check it to see that the shoulder is flush by dragging my finger nail or the file tang across the area being filed to see if it's flush. If not, I get another file or make more strokes or something.

I believe Karl files the top and bottom and not the sides making the guard slot very tight on the sides for his. That is great, but I dont have the precise milling capabilities so I file the sides too.

This is another thing that will give you gray hairs. Filing the sides. When filing the sides, you have to go deep enough to get past the dullness of your file. In other words, your file. although cutting good, is not as crisp as you think it is in the corner, for a variety of reasons. Number one being that we are not machines and cant make perfect strokes without concentrating. Concentrate! But, the corners of the file always leaves a tiny little "round" in the juncture of the two planes. The quality of the file, the newness of the file, and how we concentrate, all will affect this corner. But, back to the point. Go deep enough to where the "round" corner of the file becomes flat again. This is not much, but you have to get there or you wont ever get a good fit.

My side depth is about .005-.006 deep. This requires me to then work on the guard slot to settle it on in and to fit up tight and not wiggle. I actually round the rim of my slot when I see the shiny contact points that are interfering with the fit. All of the work, naturally, has to be within the covering of the ricasso. Were talking tiny amounts.

I had to really emmerse myself in the details to get it to fit good. But it works for me.
"We dont rent pigs." Augustus McCrae
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Offline kbaknife

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Re: Guard fitting issue
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2011, 09:31:00 AM »
Wow - that right there is one heck of an explanation.
And you really nailed it, Lin:

".....it is a number of small errors that add up."

So many components to a good fit it about makes you crazy.
When the last deer disappears into the morning mist,
When the last elk vanishes from the hills,
When the last buffalo falls on the plains,
I will hunt mice for I am a hunter and I must have my freedom.
Chief Joseph

Offline Kevin Evans

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Re: Guard fitting issue
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2011, 10:33:00 AM »
I agree good explanation,
when Lin is talking about the sides of the guide not being paralell ,what I have found is I tightened the guide so tight it acually bowed(buckeled) the guide .Thats why in my post "I said don't tighten guide more than nessasary"
Also if the recosso is not perfectly flat(which very few are) ,top to bottom and front to back ,it will bow the guide and make it un-parallel.Sometimes I use tape on part of the recosso to try and get it perfect.
Thought of something else to save head aches after your done take guide apart and clean very good ,if not there will be tiny pieces of grit on it that will dent (speckel) the next knife you do in the recosso area.

Offline Doug Campbell

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Re: Guard fitting issue
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2011, 10:57:00 AM »
Great stuff Lin and another good point Kevin. Seems no matter how clean the inside of that guide is it can still "mark" the ricasso of your knife. I tried tape but it always seems to "slip". Get yourself a pad of the small sticky notes, don't use the sticky part but fold and slip between the guide and ricasso. Handy, holds tight and protects perfectly, great for protecting the blade when your driving/pressing the guard into place also.
Life is wonderful in Montana!!
"BEING CHALLENGED IN LIFE IS INEVITABLE. BEING DEFEATED IS OPTIONAL."
ABS Journeyman Knifesmith

Offline Steve Nuckels

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Re: Guard fitting issue
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2011, 09:05:00 PM »
This is the "GOOD STUFF"!  

Thanks!

Steve
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Potomac Forge

Offline Lin Rhea

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Re: Guard fitting issue
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2011, 03:15:00 PM »
What I'm about to say might seem like superstition, but no.    :nono:    

I believe in "routine". In other words, good habits will carry you through some of the mundane details of knife making.

If something dont work, stop doing it. If it doesn't work to your satisfaction, make small changes in your methods and "dial" it in, eliminating the practices that do you no good and possibly hinder your success. Do this till you are happy with the results.

Then, this where the "routine" comes in, stay with it even if you dont fully understand it. Do it the same way every time.

An example of this is as Kevin and Doug says, to clean the file guide and get all of the metal filings out before you clamp it on the next knife. If it's a habit to clean it, there wont be as many things to fix.
"We dont rent pigs." Augustus McCrae
ABS Master Bladesmith
TGMM Family of the Bow
Dwyer Dauntless longbow 50 @ 28
Ben Pearson recurve 50 @ 28
Tall Tines Recurve 47@28
McCullough Griffin longbow 43@28

Offline tippit

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Re: Guard fitting issue
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2011, 04:46:00 PM »
This is very helpful as I am not doing these yet.  I have my file guide and touching my toe in the water before jumping in  :)  

Mind you I know nothing of this...but one other thing I've seen Jason Knight do is take a very small dremel diamond bit and cut a divot in the recaso where the tang meets it.  I guess to make sure that that corner doesn't hang up the guard.  Maybe that's the same as Karl rounding the guard edge?  Hope I explained that right.
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Offline JMR

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Re: Guard fitting issue
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2011, 09:32:00 PM »
Great info guys, getting guards to fit properly drives me crazy. I don't think I've been 100% successful yet. I just keep plugging away but at least now I know what to try.

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