questions about old files

[Ragnarok Forge]

I would have to guess that Swiss files are good steel, but that is a guess.  Get ahold of the engineer or materials manager from the company on email.  They will be able to tell you the steel type. I would have some pictures ready.  They can often tell you the year they were made which helps identify the steel.  Here is another trick.  Heat the steel up to nonmagnetic or a bit past.  Quench it in water.   Put the file in a vise and hit it with a hammer.  If the steel breaks off you have hardenable steel that will work for a knife.  Try it again with canola or another oil and see if the steel breaks when hit after hardening.

[GrayRhino]

Thanks RF.  I will try the heat, quench and hammer test today.  I appreciate your advice!

Does anyone know if the Nicholson files made in Brazil are of the same quality and steel as the ones made in the USA?

[Todd Robbins]

I tested a Brazilian made Nicholsen farrier's rasp a couple of years ago that was case hardened.  I've never heard of any American made Nicholsen products that weren't high carbon steel, though.

[GrayRhino]

I heated the end of the file and quenched it in water, then hit it with a hammer.  Instead of shattering the file broke and this is how it looked.  I'm new at this, but am I correct that the grey innner material that looks like chalk, and the darker surface material indicates it to be case hardened?

This is the only Nicholson file I could find here.  

    :(

[LONGBOWKID]

Gray Rhino-

The steel looks just how it should. Nice fine grain. Shattering is commonly used to describe the desired effect for this test, but Ive never had one truly shatter, only break cleanly like yours has here. The file appears to be high carbon steel, and is not case hardened. I would trust it to make a knife with.

Good luck.

Brandon

[GrayRhino]

Thanks Brandon, that's a big help.  I'm learning every step as I go along with this project.

[Keefer]

I've been watching this thread and hope I can ask a question and not robbing the thread by any means...
1.- Can you just heat the file with Mapp gas or propane torch till dull red?
 
2.-Does the ash have to be warm ash or can it be just like ash from a pellet stove and cold?

3.- When you are done shaping the blade do you reheat then quench in oil or cold water slowly?

4.-Thanks and forgive me if this has been already asked previously...

[LONGBOWKID]

Keefer-

 You could use a MAPP or propane torch, but you'd have a difficult time keeping even heat on the blade.

The ash can be cold or warm, it is just to help retain the heat for a long period of time.

When done shaping, heat the blade until a magnet will not stick to it, then quench in warm oil, careful not to move the blade from side to side. Also, never quench in cold water, that will cause the blade to crack.

Brandon

[GrayRhino]

Brandon, thanks for the helpful info you've posted on this thread.  

I'm curious as to why should the blade not be moved from side to side when quenching in oil.  The few youtube videos I saw of quenching in oil showed the blade dipped in oil and swirled around a little.

[Lin Rhea]

I'm going to jump i here and make a comment or two.

The quench, for the sake of this discussion, is a deliberate plunge into the oil, not a slow movement. Not a splash or a slosh, just stick it in there. A slow action would allow the blade or parts of it to cool below the necessary temperature to acheive the transition to full hardness.

Also the only "swirling" action should be a "slicing" or "sawing" of the oil, IF ANY. Please dont "paddle" it as with a boat paddle. You'll warp your blade a higher percentage of the time paddling. When you paddle from side to side the quench is sucking the heat out of the steel at an un even rate. Warpage. If you dont allow for the even reduction of heat, there cant help but be more stress pulling at one side or another. Thus warpage.

I mentioned EVEN HEATING. If you want to be successful at heat treating, you have to think EVEN HEATING AND EVEN COOLING.  For that to happen you must have a CONTROLLABLE HEAT SOURCE. That means large enough and steady/contollable enough. You must have the right QUENCHANT. That means an oil of some sort most of the time. You also must have the right METHODS to get it done in the right sequence.

Some post I've read here mention off the wall, risky methods of heating and quenching (I am speaking mostly of comments about mis-information, not solid alternative methods). Sometime you will get lucky doing that, but more often than not the blade shaped piece of steel just survived the process in one piece but the guts of the knife are pretty tore up. In other words, a high percentage of them are not hardened all the way along the edge or are left too hard or too soft after the draw. OR worse, the all important grain has grown to the size of sand grains and the blade will break on you when you need it most.  Most of the time the tip will break off in this circumstance leaving you scratching your head. I'll tell you why. Because of un even heating and cooling and poor methods.

BTW, you'll see lots of things on ***tube that are not things you want to do. I watch it too, but I skip over some of the stuff that I know will get me in trouble.


A file is mystery steel. We think it's 1095 or W2 or whatever. If you are going to use mystery steel, there is a logical approach to the heat treat. You can not take an arbitrary recipe from the internet or from an old timer and hope to get a good knife out of it if you dont know the type of steel.*edited to clarify: unless you know how to properly test.* Assuming it is 1095, then you have to do your part with the heat source, quenchant, and methods.

You might review this thread from a while back.
  My Thoughts on Heat Treating

[kbaknife]

Lin's reference back to that other thread would be a very good idea.
There are so many loosely used terms tossed around this thread, I don't know how anyone could help but be confused.

[akaboomer]

I agree that the heat thread revisited is great. This is why I prefer known steel from a reputable supplier. The cost of known, quality steel is less expensive than multiple failures due to " mistery steel" with home brew HT recipes. My free time is a rare commodity so I can't afford it to be a " I hope this works situation".

Just my thoughts on files overall.


Chris

[GrayRhino]

Lin, thank you.  That makes sense.  I appreciate you taking the time to give advice to those of us who are just starting out.