so i decided to put the sharpening skills i learned on this site to use...... i took my santuko kitchen knife and did my best on it with a wet stone then a strop and used it to shave. not to bad really did better than i expected but still not a razor. goes to show that all i have learned about edge geometry is really very important , from a chopper,to a skinner, and a razor are all sharp blades but with completely different edges on them they are suited to there own special purpose. thanks for all the advice on sharpening and edge geometry.