My First Holmegaard Type Bow Attempt (Compleated Pics - 09/14)

[ber643]

Thank you, buddy Jeff.

A thought occurred to me today, well actually a question. Perhaps someone with more experience with Holmi type bows can answer it, maybe Ray. Since the outter limbs are stiff and non-working (normally) on a Holmi, does it require a longer string than say a regular longbow? (i,e. 66" bow = 63" string, generally, and a Holmi might require an inch or two more?) Or, is this just a mental conundrum that doesn't work out mathmatically? I got to thinking about it today while trying to get a short string on my bow - which apparently is still too strong and just stretchs the string out (back to flat, untill you twist it too much to even get it strung - LOL) - back to the scraper and the long string for now.

[Shaun]

Less thinking, more scraping. Looking good Bernie! Thanks for keeping regular updates coming.

[ber643]

Duh - I'm afaraid I already have too much "less thinking", Shaun -   :D  

Today, due to the unevenness of my carport "wall", My FC boards wouldn't stay hooked to their velcro. I had to staple them on to the uprights. That's alright Though, they don't cost enough to preclude new ones when the siding is up. You will see they are not quite even but very close.

After more thining of the inner limbs this afternoon, since I couldn't string the bow properly yet, after the AMs thinning session, I put the bow on the long string again and "treed it" . This time it was curving enough to pull the string down to the 20" line, and the scale read 43# at that point. I was very pleased with the curves of the inner limbs (unless I'm fooling myself, or going blind from looking     ). It should put me closer to the short string anyway -    :

 

[Dano]

She looks ready for a short string to me. Nice work Bernie.

[ber643]

Thank you, Dano, ol' friend. I hope you are right. Sure blew my mind for a minute there when it stretched that string out flat earlier today - until it dawned on me what was happening -   :D  Rose said my mouth dropped open like a fly trap.   :eek:  

I may try it again this evening, though it is still pretty stiff (they weren't kidding about Hickory being tough).

[Shaun]

Really getting there now Bernie. Fine looking bow starting to peek out of that stick.

[ber643]

Thank you shaun - a neat way to put it -  

[Glenn Newell]

Bernie I would be trying to draw that bow down on the tiller board from where you would be nockig the arrow, you will see the limbs bend differently then...Glenn...

[Dano]

I agree Bernie, once you get real close to final tiller I would put your rope as close to where you'd be drawing the bow, there's more to it but you have enough on your mind right now I'm sure.

[ber643]

Glen and Dano, You know, I am glad you two mentioned that, because I must admit that I hadn't even thought about it. It (of course) makes perfect sense to me but remember that I did my tillering on my other two bows on Mike's tillering tree and under his guidance, not on mine (untill at the very end of my bow, "It"). I must also admit, I don't recall if mike's hookup for the rope pully at the bottom is offset or not, or if he offset the bow in the holder of the tree. So, should I offset the eye bolt I have my rope/pully hooked to at the bottom of the tree, offset the bow in the holder, or do you just move the snap (on the string) to where the arrow would be, and then the placement at the center of the tillering board (at the bottom) is not enough off to matter? I'm sure that this is basic stuff that I should already know before reaching this point but it is obvious that, either I do not, or I have forgotten something important - again - LOL. Little help here please, guys. I may try it out in the AM some (different ways) to testo-testo it - with or without advice. Thanks again for mentioning it, in any case.

[Shaun]

Bernie

My two cents on this topic...

I have played with this string pull position thing some and I believe the ideal situation would be to have the bow balanced at the point where it would push against your palm and the string pulled from where you middle finger would be on the string grip. BUT.. the only difference I can tell in tillering is how far the tips come around on a background marked with a grid to see if they are pulling the same distance.

I have come to believe that the more accurate way to balance this is by static tiller at brace. I like about 3/16 positive tiller for split finger. I have heard that about even works better for 3 under shooters.

I try to do most of my tillering before the bow bends past brace height and do the final touch up on the tree. Brad Merkel of Littletree bows got me started using a pair of posts near the tips and a squeeze grip bar clamp at the handle to do this early tillering to brace height and I really like the method.

Final tiller is best seen in the hand, either with a mirror or better yet with digital photo that you can stare at - like when you post here and we all get to look for as long as we can before going cross eyed.

You are doing great Bernie. Really looking forward to this Holmegaard (is that old Norse for Home Boy?) style bow - never done one myself and its now on my list for this winter.

[ber643]

Hmmm, as Dano said, Shaun, I guess there is a lot more to this, and I now remember reading much more of it on Paleoplanet. It was mostly talking theories and based on folks much longer experiences with it, and I fear I mostly brushed over it as being beyond my ken (or scope at least) at the time as I read those subjects. Still, I see the value of pulling the string (and/or pully rope) from the point one would draw it. So it looks like maybe balance the bow pretty close to center (at least of the grip - for me). I do shoot split finger. It also seems you must be pretty sure which limb is to be your tyop limb and where you are placing that limb - left or right of cradle (at least until/if the bow gets fickle and makes you change your mind), in order to have your pull off-center on the correct side of the tillering post. So I guess you would always place bows/limbs the same on your own set up, or you would need two eye bolts at the bottom of the tree (???).

With this bow, I (started out so have continued and wound up) have seen the right hand (looking at it) limb as basically the stiffer/stronger limb, so have assumed it would probably wind up my bottom limb. To be more handy to my way I probably shouyld have it on the left side - LOL - but I've continued to put it on the same (right) side for continuity of both pictures and eyeballing. This should conceivably put my line of pull to the left of the center of the post (if I'm thinking right). Then on the other hand I've seen it written that many feel you should turn the bow around on the tree and look at the other side too. I think I am confusing myself. I better shut up - for now      :D    .

That doesn't mean I want others to. I feel a "need to know" or at least to have a usable guidline for now -        

Oh, I do have the passing thought that the Holmi (Perhaps the Holmegaard people were cosidered "Home boys" -        ) Type bows might be hard to get fully (or close, for sure) to tiller before drawing, especially if shooting for a light draw (like mine) because you wind up having to remove so much wood as you progress (at least with Hickory) - but that's just my passing thought, and from a beginner's stand point remember. On the other hand, mine seems to have "behaved rather well, so far, in that respect.

(Man, I do hope some of this makes sense - I guess I better go get breakfast and    )

[Glenn Newell]

Bernie the only way you will ever see how the limbs will bend when you are shooting the bow on a tiller tree is to place it on the tree where your hand will be and draw the bow from where you will nock the arrow. Rig up a drawing point for the rope to represent how you shoot with three fingers under or split fingers. If your bow has a shorter bottom limb the bow will want positive tiller but if you have made the bow with equal length limbs and you are nocking the arrow 1.25" above centre the bow will more than likely want to have negative tiller or reverse tiller.
When you have an equal length limb bow and you nock the arrow 1.25" above centre the string length to the top limb will be 2.5" shorter than to the bottom limb tip from where the arrow is nocked. The shorter string length will place a lot more pressure on the top limb and the top limb will have to be strengthened to balance the bow and not induce excessive string follow to the top limb. I have been doing this for 10 years now and the bows with equal length limbs and reverse tiller will take will take even set and shoot really smooth as against positive tillered equal length limb bows.
All this depends on where you hold the bow and draw the bow from...Glenn...

[Dano]

Bernie, just in case your not totally confused, here's some more good reading to make sure you are.
 http://www.bowyersedge.com/organic.html
This goes along with what Glenn said.

[ber643]

I will read that, Dano (I like Dean Torges writings a lot anyway), thanks. Also thank you, Glenn. I followed that pretty well. I did make this one equal length limbs. I shoot split finger, and will see about perhaps sinking another screw eye (or perhaps two) in at the bottom of my tree (I use a climbers snap - proper name escapes me at this moment - to hook the bottom pully and snap to the screw eye anyway - easy to move it from one screw eye to another.) That way I'll be covered, whichever way I make a given bow, or whichever side the "top" limb is on. (If I can just remember when, and which, I'm doing what to - LOL)

I also re-read Jim Hamm's section on Tillering, in TBB, Vol I, this AM (for breakfast)just for more basic info refresher. 'Scuse me, I gotta go see if I have any more large screw eyes left, or if I must make a run to Lowe's - LOL

[ber643]

QK, first of all I shoot with my arrow pretty close to level, from nock point to top of my bow hand (or a layered leather "Dano rest" that I like to use on most of my bows now, situated close to the same position. I have found this works best for me on most all wood bows).

I had one screw eye in the (real) tree I had rigged up before, out back (when I was tillering my Osage "It"). I checked where the pull should be for my draw/shooting style and it falls about a quarter of an inch in from the side of the 4x4 post (tillering post), or about 1 1/2" over from center. I drilled holes on both edges of the 4x4(for later use)for the screw eye(s), enough above the centered one, so that I would have room to twist them in, and screwed the eye in the one on the left, for this bow. The pully rope now travels straight down just inside the edge of the 4x4 from the part of the string that should be where my index finger would be when shooting. Pics later, when I get time, so you can see where I am speaking of, in case you have doubt. (I again used the long string since I wasn't sure how the bow would like, and react to, my new shenanigans - LOL). I exercised the bow some and then drew it to about the 15 or 16 inch line. Results were, the two limbs still curved quite evenly (I was pleased) but as you (and I) would now expect (I think) the top (left) tip was traveling down about 1/2 to 1 inch further than the bottom (right) limb tip, perhaps even a tad further (BTW my boards come pre-graphed in light grey 1/2" squares that you can't see in the pics). So, I take this to mean, since I can't "strengthen" the top limb, I need to weaken the lower limb to get them even again. Am I figuring right, and is this result about what you would expect, Dano, Glenn?

[Glenn Newell]

Sounds right to me Bernie, you will need to weaken the lower limb. You can turn the bow around the ther way so the stronger limb is the top limb if you haven't already done that...Glenn...

[ber643]

Well, I decided to start without you guys -   :D  

Since I saw that the lower (right) limb was not drawing as far as the upper (left) limb, while pulling with the long string from the point that will be my drawing point, instead of pulling from the center, as I had been doing, I took the following action.

I made ten passes with my scraper on the lower limb, trying to even them up again. I then put it on the tree (still with the long string to be safe) and exercised it and took this pic. You will see I left this pic uncropped so folks could see the new position of the pully rope - i.e. to the left side of the tiller post, and lined up with where my arrow will be nocked on this bow. You will also see the right (lower) limb is still behind the upper (left limb) but the curves are still looking good (IMO):

 

I did the same thing again. My ten passes with the scraper on the lower limb. BTW - Ten passes on a limb this wide means (in my case), that I scrape, full length, 12 times, traversing across the width of the limb, I repeat that ten times. After that I floor tiller and flex, then back to the tillering tree again for more exercise, and another pic. This time I cropped the pic (as I usually do) for better visibility/clarity. Still looks like the lower limb is behind the upper limb but not as much:

 
 
My plans are to repeat this untill the limbs are drawing even again, from the new, more correct point of draw/pull. I will go to the short string as soon as possible, perhgaps for the next pics.

[ber643]

Had a short, late night session (spur of the moment) last night. Got the working limbs pretty close together again now, and the short string on 'er. If all goes well on the home front, probably more pics served up, after a little more work, later today -   :p  .

[Shaun]

Anxious to see the braced photo to see how the balancing on the tiller board worked. It is real thoughtful of you to keep us updated on this and let us all learn along with you. Good stuff Bernie.