Author Topic: balanced bows with different limb length's  (Read 4055 times)

Offline osprey1

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balanced bows with different limb length's
« on: January 15, 2009, 08:49:00 PM »
Hi All: Was wondering if anyone has built a Dean Torges style of self or reflex/deflex type of hunting bow which has the lower limb usually an inch or two shorter than the upper. I have Deans book "Hunting the Osage Bow" where he goes into his reasons for building bows this way with the end result being a more balanced bow. Am thinking of building a R/D bow using this method. Have made a couple of hickory board bows with one being a Perry Reflex type. With both of these bows I laid the handle out right in the center. I think Eric has made this type of bow so am hoping he or anyone else might chirp in here with what they think of the different limb length approach. Thanks a bunch.
Tom  :help:
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Offline Glenn Newell

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Re: balanced bows with different limb length's
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2009, 10:00:00 PM »
Tom, that is the best way to build a bow. The dymanic and static balance of the bow are closer together. I think they are much easier to make than an equal length limb bow. The equal length bow is easier to set out but are harder to tiller and have them stay in tiller...Glenn...

Offline fujimo

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Re: balanced bows with different limb length's
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2009, 10:06:00 PM »
sorry i dont understand, surely if a symmetrical bow shifts out of tiller, then so would an assymetrical bow? would a symmetrical bow not be eaier to tiller balanced, as the limds would theoretically have very similar bends/shapes.
would someone be able to explain the static and dynamic balances of a bow in laymans terms for a dummie like me!!
thanks
wayne

Online Pat B

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Re: balanced bows with different limb length's
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2009, 11:41:00 PM »
I find a symmetric bow way easier to see tiller than an asymmetric bow. With the asymmetric design each limb bends differently. You have to judge the bend of each and compare it with the even bend of the other. I built bows for many years asymmetrical because that's how all the books at that time told you how to do it. A few years ago I began to build them symmetrical and my tillering improved quite a bit.
   I don't think it really matters. Both styles of layout work well. My symmetrical bows balance well in my hand and come up smoothly when I begin my draw.  It's a matter of what works best for you.
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!
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Offline osprey1

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Re: balanced bows with different limb length's
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2009, 12:30:00 AM »
Thanks guys. Like a lot of things it almost sounds like a personal thing. I haven't shot enough of either type of bow (asymetrical or symetrical) so I can't really appreciate the difference. Nor do I fully appreciate what a bow that "balances in the hand" truly means having only shot the two bows that I have made. They seem to feel pretty good. Its really great to hear the thoughts of guys (and gals)that have shot and built a number of bows and also from folks like myself who are still new to so much. Simply because I'm a newbie I don't want to deviate too much from a proven plan so I think I'll try to follow Dean's pattern as closely as I can. I know that on a bow that's symetrical one can flip to bow end for end to have the stronger limb on the bottom if it just happens to tiller out that way with one limb stronger than the other. With the other asymetrical design that wouldn't be an option.
Sounds like there are pros and cons to each design.   :)
"Behold this and always love it, for it is sacred and you must always treat it as such"...Sioux Indian

Offline DCM

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Re: balanced bows with different limb length's
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2009, 08:51:00 AM »
I'm sure there are pros and cons to each way, but I don't think we've really touched the surface of how each way differs from the other.  For me, the best way to start is to compare a string for a so called symmetrical bow, ie. arrow pass 2" above center on a 4" handle, to one where the arrow pass is closer to dimensional center.  I think what you'll find is the the upper limb is shortened in the sym bow as indicated by the nock point on the string.  Not so much so on the so called asym bow.  Makes one wonder what the term sym is supposed to mean, when applied to such a design as the arrow pass 2" above center.

From my pov, the nock point is the point where the bow will apply forces, the central point of the bow.  I can see no compelling reason to put it so much above center as to handicap the upper limb, and give the lower a free ride.  Particularly in a bow where we want to work as close to the elastic capacity of the material as possible, like with an all wood bow.  For a glass bow, theres so much extra work capacity I'm not sure it matters as much in that context.  But I think even in a glass bow having the string segments, and consequently the corresponding bow/limb segments be as similar as possible (the triangles these elements strike) makes it a heck of a lot easier (for me) to assure they both draw and return in relative unison.  When they are significantly different shapes (the triangle the arrow, limb, string make) it's harder (again based on my fevered way of thinking) to bring them into balance with spring force (tiller) alone.

Here's a site I cite frequently for some interesting background reading.  Not for the faint of heart.  In fact, I'd wager the average bowyer would be better served to simply do what they've been taught or have come to prefer with trial and error, or experience.

   http://www.goarchers.org.uk/mechanics/  

In particular the section in [Bow Mechanics] titled [Tiller] discusses the asymetry inherent in the bow/arrow/archer model, and the corresponding implications for bow design and tiller.  To boil it down, both positive tiller and placing arrow pass closer to center have the same result, they mitigate the tendancy for the bow to rotate upper limb toward archer on the draw stroke, and the tendancy for the arrow nock to travel in an upward or downward curve on the return or power stroke stroke, versus traveling in a straight line.

This is an interesting topic.  One where I haven't found a really, really compelling justification for one option over the other in practice, honestly.  And one where a wide variety of opinions exist and imho, a fairly shallow understanding of the underlying geometry and physics, myself included.  As such, sometimes folks can get a little testy during a long, detailed discussion.  So while it interests me, I try to tread lightly in order to honor other folks preferences and pov.  But I make most of my bows with the lower limb 1/2 to 2" "shorter" (which is a misnomer) than the upper.

I've never quite accepted the notion that the natural balance point of the bow, if suspended horizontally, has any relevance to how it shoots, "handles" or how convenient it is to carry in the woods.  It's part of Dean's argument favoring the arrow pass at center, which places the balance point closer to dimensional center, the so called "draggin anchor" argument.  I don't doubt it, it just doesn't come up as an issue for me when I'm totin' a bow around.

Everybody who knew I'd come along and write a book about this topic raise yer hands.  LOL

Offline Art B

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Re: balanced bows with different limb length's
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2009, 09:26:00 AM »
:wavey:

Online Pat B

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Re: balanced bows with different limb length's
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2009, 09:51:00 AM »
When I set my bows up with the center of the bow being the center of the handle the arrow pass is actually only about 1" above the center.
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!
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Offline Art B

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Re: balanced bows with different limb length's
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2009, 10:23:00 AM »
David wrote: "I can see no compelling reason to put it so much above center as to handicap the upper limb, and give the lower a free ride."

Remember in another thread where I mentioned that most folks forget about the bow hand David. Yes, the asymmertic string angle does add more strain to the upper limb using a symmetrical bow design. And less to the lower limb (the free ride you mentioned). Now if you throw in the bow hand and it's countering balancing effects you get equal strain on both limbs. That's why a symmetrial bow design can and does fuction very well.

Glad I could clear that up for you David. LOL!

ART B

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Offline osprey1

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Re: balanced bows with different limb length's
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2009, 01:08:00 PM »
Wow! I think there may an opportunity for some type of physics thesis on this topic. DCM really touched on a lot of very informative and interesting points. I had wondered about the natural balance point and the way the bow balances in the hand when carried horizontally. Very interesting. I tried this balancing with my bows that were laid out with the handle in the center of the bow and as far as I can tell they seem to balance pretty well. As Pat B mentioned this puts my arrow pass about an 1"+ above center. Then there is the other type of balance mentioned where  the bow balances in the hand when the bow is drawn without rocking when drawn. I think one is trying to avoid having one limb tip more than the other towards the archer as the bow is being drawn. Can't say I have noticed this much either in my symetrical bows. Art B mentions the bow hand would seem almost intuitivly to counterbalance where needed as more drawing force is applied.
From what I am reading I am made to believe both types of balancing issues are so subtle that they might hardly be noticable in a bow where the arrow pass is situated in the true center of the bow (asymetetrical sytle) from a bow where the arrow pass is 1" or more above the true center of the bow. If so then then my inexperianced newbie brain has to wonder..... "if so then why bother with dealing with the extra tillering difficulties of a bow with a different limb length?" I guess I was really wondering what I was missing out on by building my bows with same length limbs as opposed to different length. Dean mentions the better balance and how the bow comes quickly to the hand etc. so it sounds like a very noticable thing but really I do wonder. May have to build a different lengh limb bow and see if I can notice the difference. Based on the range of opinions voiced here this is a highly debatable topic.   :rolleyes:
"Behold this and always love it, for it is sacred and you must always treat it as such"...Sioux Indian

Online Pat B

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Re: balanced bows with different limb length's
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2009, 01:22:00 PM »
An extreme example of an asymmetrical bow would be the Japanese Yumi bow. These bows are very long(7'?)with the handle at about 1/3 the way up from the bottom tip.  The arrow pass is well below the center of the bow and a Yumi archer is quite effective with this bow.
  A bow is only as accurate as the arrow shot and the archer shooting.
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!
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Offline Art B

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Re: balanced bows with different limb length's
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2009, 01:51:00 PM »
A symmetrical or asymmetrical design should soley be determined by how one grips their bow. Or at least that's how I do it. I wouldn't think that how one drags their bow through the woods could have any bearing on arrow pass placement or limb length differences.

Take a bow that's designed with the arrow pass 1" above center and shoot it with a low wrist/full grip. Here, greater stress is placed on the lower limb. Tiller profile will be hard to maintain if not completely pulled out of whack. Shocky also,  because limb mass is no longer balanced.

Now take a bow designed with an arrow pass 2" above center. Shoot that bow with a straight/high wrist and see what happens. Greater strain is placed on the upper limb causing greater positive tiller and again, throwing off limb timing.

Me, I build both designs and grip 'em appropriately and they serve me well.

ART B

Offline fujimo

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Re: balanced bows with different limb length's
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2009, 12:45:00 AM »
hypothetically, why not build a bow with same length limbs, and pass the arrow at center of the bow, what would be the disadvantages of such design- besides the obvious longer riser, and subsequently longer bow?
surely way easier to tiller and maintain stability in the tiller. the nocking point would then be a negligable half inch(approx) above true center.
wayne

Offline Apex Predator

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Re: balanced bows with different limb length's
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2009, 05:51:00 AM »
Fujimo,

The inherent problem exists because you can't have the arrow pass at center if you are gripping the center.
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Offline Glenn Newell

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Re: balanced bows with different limb length's
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2009, 03:35:00 PM »
You can't grip you bow in the centre and shoot the arrow thorugh the centre. The centre of your hand is your centre of your middle finger and not the index finger so the shelf will be around 1.25 inches above centre which then makes the string length from where the arrow is nocked 2.5 inches shorter to the top limb than the bottom limb. This means you are placing a lot more pressure on your top limb through the draw. You can set your bow up to be shot anyway you like but the limbs must be tillered to hand placement on the bow and where the bows is drawn on the string...Glenn...

Offline Art B

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Re: balanced bows with different limb length's
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2009, 04:17:00 PM »
Glenn, how are you doing these days? Hey, I've read where Tim Baker likes his rest set at 5/8" above center. Think I also read in one of Dean Torges' articles that he preferred 3/4" above center. These are very very low contact designs. From the pic's I've seen of Baker's shooting he's pretty much supporting the bow with the middle of his thumb. Makes for easier limb timing and a faster arrow from my experimentation with that design. Hard on the thumb though. But then again, these guys can do things that most of us can't!

 ART B

Offline Glenn Newell

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Re: balanced bows with different limb length's
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2009, 04:33:00 PM »
Art I always make my rest 5/8" (which is roughly half the measurement from the middle of the middle finger to the top of the index finger)   above centre and I make the bottom 1 1/4" shorter, this places the arrow in the centre of the bow and I make the bottom limb stiffer, how much stiffer depends on hand placement and heel pressure on the bow...Glenn...

Offline fujimo

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Re: balanced bows with different limb length's
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2009, 08:42:00 PM »
ok, great now i finally understand that principle, never had it explained like that befor. so now how does one tiller the limbs to accommodate hand placement.
on past bows i have had horizontal lines on my tillering board- i have recognised that the two limbs will not match each other exactly in shape, but i would draw them at the approx. nocking point, and ensure that the tips cross the horizontal lines at the same time- always maintaining the desired shape in the limbs.
 is this correct, or how can this be improved upon??
thanks
wayne

Offline Glenn Newell

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Re: balanced bows with different limb length's
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2009, 12:12:00 AM »
Wayne my experience has been that if the bow is placed on the tiller board and drawn from the nocking point you will then see how the limbs will bend when being drawn. If the limbs are symetrical or asymetrical they will bend different anyway. You will know if you have done something wrong because one limb will develop more string follow than the other which says it needs to be strengthened. If you are using a lot of heel palm pressure to shoot your bow to me that says that the bottom limb is too strong and you are fighting it through the draw...Glenn...

Offline osprey1

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Re: balanced bows with different limb length's
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2009, 12:24:00 AM »
Glen, you say that "The equal length bow is easier to set out but are harder to tiller and have them stay in tiller".
Could you expand on this a bit for me. I would think a bow with limbs of equal length and the handle in the center would be easier to tiller but I have yet to build a bow with a shorter lower limb. I do know that when I made my first two symetrical bows I never felt right about putting the handle in the tillering boards cradle dead center and then pulling down dead center on the string. Then when the bow was finish tillered I would put the arrow rest on 1.25" above center and the nocking point opposite that and that was that. I had tillered to one set of parameters and then added  another set of parameters (new arrow pass and nocking location) and began shooting the bow with these late and final changes away from my initial tillering efforts. This never felt right and I now am beginning to understand why.
With regard to the symetrical bow I see your points  about the upper and lower triangles being different and the extra strain on the upper limb. I wished I had made a tracing of the equal length limbs on my first bows so I could see how much they changed tiller due to my inconsistant methods. Beginning to ramble here so back to my question. Is the shorter lower limb bow really easier to tiller than a bow of equal limb lengths?
"Behold this and always love it, for it is sacred and you must always treat it as such"...Sioux Indian

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