Sinew advise

[bigcountry]

Is there any tips for working sinew?  I have several back sinew strips and 15 leg sinew.

Should i mix them on the same bow?  I figured I would use the back sinew down the middle since its long.

I do the pounding, and then separating.  But not sure how much separating to do.  Do I keep ripping until its the consistency of a limp thread?  It curles up alot when you get it down that much.  One guy suggested only pound and separate until white.

I have been using a comb and that has helped.  I saw the article in PA about using a metal flea brush like you use on dogs.  I will try that.

At first I was trying to tear completely off down to a fine thread and separate into length bundle, but figured out quick it would take a month of sundays.  So now on the leg sinew, I leave about 1cm piece of the tendon to hold it all together.  

This will bring me to another question.  I have read the TBB vol1 chapter on sinew.  But how do I lay this stuff?  I suppost I want to lay it so all fibers are flat as possible and not bunched up.  I suppose each course to be one thread high?  is this something like drywall mudding, where, its not about how thick the courses are but nice even thin courses?

Thanks for any ideas.

[Pat B]

I have only made a few sinew backed bows and all of the sinew I used had been shredded already.
  I collected bundles and "booked" them in a magazine between pages so the bundles stayed together but separate from each other. I started by dipping a bundle in the warm hide glue, squeeged off the excess glue and began laying it down the center of the bow, overlapping the bundles. After I went down the center I began working out to the edges of the limbs.
   After each layer, I set the bow aside for a month for the sinew to cure. Others don't wait that long. I used 3 courses on each bow I made.
   By combing the sinew, like Lennie suggested in his article, you get neater bundles that lay flat. Ideally, this is what you want to get all the "goody" from the sinew plus a smoother backing when you finish.
   The first thing to do is have more sinew shredded than you think you will need. Before beginning have your "booked" sinew close at hand, have your hide glue warm and thin and have a pan of warm water and a damp rag handy. The water and rag will keep your hands free of glue so you can handle the sinew without looking like a fuzzball.

[Diamondback59]

big country   i do several a year  the easiest way iv found is get ya a florist frog   thats kind a like a comb but sharp needles  cut ur sinew in 2 - 3 inch legth  run em thru the frog seprate em and leave about 1/4 inch un combed on the ends    when ya dip em and lay em then just snip off the end and lay it  save those lil pieces to make more hide glue  lay them like pat says nice smooth even   let em dry in btween for 3 weeks or so then do another course  also  all hide glue is not  made equale  i my self  buy pinao maker s hide glue  thats the strongest ya can get  at 450-495  psi   then the have some other good stuff that about 300 then the reg stuff ya can buy anywhere thats aboyt 150 psi  the ready made stuff in the brown bottles aint worth a nickel knox  works good but id say only about 150 psi  the real good stuff doesnt even stink when heated  cuz it s clearfied hide glue  hope that help s ya  brock

[bigcountry]

A florist frog?  I will have to see what that is.

I was told to use knox.  I will look into the other hide glue you are referring to.

I was thinking about this.  Instead of snipping off flush, wouldn't I want to make the ends tapered, so I can lay the two tapered ends over each other?  Or do I want to butt up the two snipped ends?  I figured it would make a gap.

[DEATHMASTER]

Is the pounding done with a hammer to start it with?
Saved some from deer legs and also need advise.
Great info so far.

[bigcountry]

I pounded it with a hammer until I could tear it into 4's, then went from there until it was stiff smaller wiry threads, then combed it to make it separate some more.

But I have no idea if its wrong or right.

[ChristopherO]

When you pound it don't crush too hard as to cut the fibers but only enough to seperate it.  
I shred it into coarse threads and keep same length threads together for future bundles.  The bundles are composed of 12-15 threads.  As Pat said above:  these bundles are then tucked into  magazines, a bundle a page.  That keeps them organized and straight.  The straighter the bundles the easier it is to lay them on the bow's back.  Don't sweat it if the bundles aren't completely even on the ends.  But if you do snip the ends even with sissors, as I sometimes do, that isn't much of a worry either as the warm glue will allow some fibers to stretch more than others.
Here is what I do:  Holding the bundle in the middle I first dip the dry bundles into warm, not hot, water and and lightly squeeze out the excess water with my fingers.  Then I set the bundles on freezer or wax paper.  This allows them to be limp and easier to work with.  One reason I do this is because I cheat and use watered down Titebond 3 as my glue.  Why?  SW Ohio is a pretty humid region and I don't want to contend with moisture.  Plus, my wife would have a fit if I cooked hide glue in the kitchen!
As it state in the Traditional Bowers Bible stagger the bundles for more strength.  Just like bricks are laid and plywood is nailed onto a wall.
As mentioned above, shred more than you think you need.  On my last sinew project I set out 100 bundles in preperaton.  Used them all, too.
If you think, once it is on the bow, that the sinew is too rough looking, well that is the way it is.  My Porter Cable Oscallating sander with fine grit paper makes it look much better once dry.
It's a lot of work but you will be proud to have a sinew backed bow.
Christopher

[DEATHMASTER]

To what consistance is the tb 3 made to. About how much do you get from a leg tendon 12" long.
It says that it comes apart in about 4 sections.
How many tendons about to do a bow say 66" long
With 12" tendons?
It sound like it will make a person proud and have a great bow in the end.

[bigcountry]

Christopher, you say you had out 100 bundles, you don't mean 100 leg tendons?  You mean the course pieces your tear from the tendon?

So me trying to tear each stiff bundle into little tiny thread pieces is a waste?

[John Scifres]

My rule of thumb is to get them about as thin as a single ply from jute twine that has 3 plies.  That's pretty thin but not like a thread.  Use a hammer that has rounded corners to smash it and then a couple pair of pliers to pull it apart.  Processing sinew is therapeutic.

[ChristopherO]

100 bundles of 12 to 15 strands of sinew.  No, not whole leg tendons!
It can be shred them down fairly thin, nearly like thread if you so desire.  Gives the back of the bow a better appearence if they are fine instead of very coarse but you can do as you want with that.  No, it isn't a waste in my book.
John's right about the rounded hammer and plyers.  It really helps.  I have an rounded two pound sledge that is the berries for this job.  If you watch the tellie with the family that is a good time to shred sinew.  Becareful that the lap dog doesn't get into it, though.  Our's loves the stuff.

DM,
A 12" long leg tendon out of a whitetail is primo.  It may break down into 4 to 6 sections but that only serves to tear it apart even better.  But not all the strands harvested out of that will be the same lenght.  You will get 1 1/2"ers as well as 10"ers out of that piece of tendon and differnt lenghts in between.  But all size bundles are important in the process.  The longer ones just make it easier to apply the main portion on the back.  My guess is that it would take at least 6 tendons to back a bow that long and probably a few more to do it very well.  The TTB says depending on design 8 leg tendons isn't out of the question.  But, after backing a few bows with sinew I am amazed how much heavier the bow is.  I am NOT refering to draw weight by that statement.  Jim Hamm states that sinewing a bow over 64" in length can actually slow it down as the limbs will be too heavy near the nocks.  I can see that.  If you are making your bow with stiff, unbending tips the last 6" or so then you may want to stop the sinew backing at the junction of the working portion of the limb and the unbending tip area.  Just a suggestion.  
I don't use too much water with the TB3 but enough to give it the consistancy  they say is good for hide glue.  Runny but thick enough to stay on the sinew and wood well.  I mix it like I cook, I just eyeball it until it looks and feel right.  Once you've done this once your confidence level will rise dramatically.

[bigcountry]

Thanks Christopher.  I appreciate the advise.

[bigcountry]

Here is my sinew.

This is back sinew
 

Here is my finely shredded leg sinew
 

Here is some course shredded sinew
 

Here is some future shredding.
 

[ChristopherO]

That look great, BC.  Keep us posted.

[bigcountry]

Is everyone's back sinew discolored like this?  I worked fairly diligently removing all meat before drying.

[DEATHMASTER]

Thanks guys this is great. Helps me a lot.
Tim

[Roy Steele]

The only different is the back straps are longer.And easer to work with and you can keep it evener with them.Use them first legs it you have to.
  Heres what I do get a rubber malit and a wooden cutting block and start pounding.As they come apart put them in piles the same leanth.Get some warm water clean each peice put back in piles.You can do this as you put it on the bow.But doing it twice makes it cleaner.On tread size about the size of 3 tread sizes for a thicker if you are going to cover it with snake skins.
       
     Remember the slower you go the better your bow will be.
 
  Remember the slower you on your bow the better it will be.

[Roy Steele]

The only different is the back straps are longer.And easer to work with and you can keep it evener with them.Use them first legs it you have to.
  Heres what I do get a rubber malit and a wooden cutting block and start pounding.As they come apart put them in piles the same leanth.Get some warm water clean each peice put back in piles.You can do this as you put it on the bow.But doing it twice makes it cleaner.On tread size about the size of 3 tread sizes for a thicker if you are going to cover it with snake skins.
       
     Remember the slower you go the better your bow will be.
 
  Remember the slower you on your bow the better it will be.

[bigcountry]

One more question. When reading Jim Hamm's book on bow making, he mentions "sizing" the bow.  He said to put a thin layer of warm glue on the back before laying the sinew.  But after that he gives the impression to let it dry before applying the sinew.  I have never seen this word "sizing" when it applies to bows.  Do I let it dry?  Or just let it get tacky?

[tah-gah-jute]

i could be wrong,but i think sizing means roughing the surface on back of bow with rasp or something else so the sinew will hold better than on smooth surface.