Want to try woodies - don't know much about them

[pseman]

I have always shot carbons and still do, but been thinking about trying some woodies out of my longbow this year to see how I like them. I read several posts about how to choose a spine, but still got some other questions.

1. About how much would 30" woodies of different types weigh?(POC, Ash, Poplar, etc) I will probably be using 125-150gr tips.

2. Do you have to straighten them often?

3. How durable are they?(ie. breaking)

Any other input on tuning or about the benefits of one type of wood over the other is welcome.

Thanks

[Tree man]

The weights will vary with the spine AND the batch of wood. A VERY rough estimate of average weight folr different wood for 50-55 lb spine category  would be something like
Sitka Spruce 330 grains
P.O. Cedar   370
Poplar       400
Ash          500

How often they need straightening varies. Some never need it others need tweaking frequently. Generally it seems that Spruce stays straight very well-Cedar not bad, Poplar can wander but restraightens easily. Ash is harder to straighten but stays fairly well. Birch requires lots of straightening.

Breakage? I dunno I break some stumping but not many. Game breaks them more often than not if they carry the arrow.

[pseman]

Thanks Treeman. When purchasing shafts, how long is "full length"? If you get full length shafts at a certain spine, and have to cut them to length, does that change the spine?

Told ya I didn't know much about wood.  

[BleekLight]

Can't tell you much about the other questions but as for how durable they are, I find they are just as durable as anything else out there now please don't chop my neck off but. I have shot aluminum, carbon, and woodies witch I currently shoot and think about it. Launch an aluminum at a concrete wall it will bend most likely or the insert will break loose, the carbon will shatter or the insert will loosen, the woodies the arrow will break in half or the tip will be pushed back on the arrow kinda shaving some wood on the way. As far as accuratnessy that varies but durability is close to the same as far as I am concerned. Just my opinion.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by pseman:
...

1. About how much would 30" woodies of different types weigh?(POC, Ash, Poplar, etc) I will probably be using 125-150gr tips.

Weights can vary quite a bit, even within the same wood genus, and from shaft to shaft - buy shafts from reputable vendors and ask about weights and weight/spine matching before buying.

2. Do you have to straighten them often?

IMHO, way way too often. No contest with carbons.

3. How durable are they?(ie. breaking)

For the most part, not as durable as good carbons.  I found that hex pines in heavier weights could take a fair beating when roving.  Footed woodies would be even better, but man are they expensive.
 
Any other input on tuning or about the benefits of one type of wood over the other is welcome.

If I hadda recommend woodies, it'd be hex pines.s

Thanks [/QB]

....

[Tree man]

Full length is usually 31-32 inches depending upon supplier. Spine categories are based upon the old AMO standard for 28 inch arrows. This means that if you buy 50-55 lb spine shafts and finish them at 31 inches they will be suited to a 35-40 lb bow....in theory. Much depends upon how centershot the bow is , variation from the standard 125 grain point weight, your release etc. There is an article in the current issue of TBM thta might help you decipher the formulae.

[ozarkcherrybow1]

for durability and holding their straightness, Maple shafts have been my favorite. They will weigh in a little heavier (finished arrows 600-650 gr.+)
 IMO- rivercane is tougher than the best carbon out there, but they are alot of work...Terry

[Brian Krebs]

having read the article in TBM by Dr Ed - in it he mentions how cedar breaks on bone contact; and how hickory and laminated birch are better than ash- I am going to try laminated birch.

 Problem is; with the hardwoods; it is apparently nessesary to have a machine to taper them correctly- like a woodchuck; or a belt sander with a taper guide.

 With spruce and cedar and other softer woods; you can use a simple cheap taper tool.

 But if your going to use wood; which is superior to carbon when dealing with bone; I think you should get some hickory or laminated birch. I am going to do it; and use grizzly heads with the beveled edge; and get to work on my opinion of Doc Ashbys work.

 I actually think we all should read Ashbys report and do some soul searching on what he says.

 While carbon gives you speed; as does cedar and other woods; and aluminum... I have decided not to think about my great shots and tagged game; but instead: about those animals I have lost.

  To much thinking hurts my head; so I am just going to follow Eds advise and try to hunt as hard and shoot as accurately as I can- and see what happens.

 I have a haunting photo that I have to deal with.

[Tree man]

Brian, It is not necessary to have a power tapering set up for hardwoods-I've done a gazillion with handtaper tools. Some tools do work betetr than others The Bearpaw sharpeners eat hardwoods with ease.
Dr. Ashby's work is apples to my oranges. I don't shoot very heavy bows-old heavy bow related injuries preclude it for me. I use whatever shafting gets me where I want to be weightwise or-I play with changing spines and adding tip weight to get something like Spruce into the total weight I desire. FWIW I have NEVER had a shaft break on impact with game.I have had animals carry an arrow and break it in their death run or falling on it. I have busted a few arrows on rocks but no animal's bone has caused a shaft to shatter.--I don't shoot heavy bows or Buffalo bones.

[Brian Krebs]

Thanks for the tip tree man.    

I have taken over a dozen bears; and I made a shot I thought was a good one on a huge bear. I did not hear a bone snap when I shot.  I do mean a huge bear. It ran off; and I waited in my treestand until past dark and found the back 2/3 of the arrow and took a picture; that I will wonder about forever.
 I backed out because the arrow was found about 40 yards away; and that is where I should have found the bear. It rained all night; and I did not find the bear after 3 days of intensive searching.
 It may have lived; but I will always wonder why this picture turned out like it did; and why??
  Now with the Ashby data; I intend to not let this happen again......
  Here is the photo:
 

[Tree man]

pseman, BTW the weights I gave above were for the shafts without point weight added.

Brian, Odd picture -looks like a finger of light pointing at the arrow break. The fact that the arrow made it 40 yards makes me think that Bre'r Bear broke it while moving rather than it breaking on impact. Do you think you hit the shoulder?

[pseman]

Thanks for the info guys. I am a big fan of carbon and intend on using carbon for the most part, but being fairly new to traditional gear, I am wanting to give all aspects of the sport a try. I really like the looks and nostalgic appeal of wood arrows and hopefully, with some help from folks on here as well as trial and error, I'll have a properly matched dozen woodies to shoot at something.

One more question, assuming that I want a 65-70# set of wood arrows that are 30" in length, what spine would I purchase if they are full length(32") shafts? I assume that I would buy a slightly weaker spine and that cutting 2" off would increase the spine.

[Joseph]

I have limited experience with carbon shafts but based on my own experience and what I have observed you would be hard pressed to find a tougher shaft than Hickory/Maple/Yellow Birch/Laminated Birch.  Especially with a sideways glancing blow that haoppens often while stup shooting.  I have also several times while stumping shot at something I thought was soft and arrow friendly only to discover as the arrow hit it that it was a rock!  More often than not this results in a split ferrule on the point and an undamaged shafts with the previously mentioned hardwoods.  Yes there is more effort involved in making a wood shaft into a good arrow and they sometimes require tweaking to stay straight but isn't that why most of us got into trad archery in the first place?  We weren't looking for the easy road?  Just my thoughts on the matter    Joseph

[Brian Krebs]

treeman; the picture was taken at night with a digital camera- and I have absolutely no idea what that light is. Its not an altered photo; it did make me try REAL hard to find the bear! I could have hit shoulder; I don't know. Like I say I didn't hear a bone crack; but if I didn't hit bone; the arrow would have passed all the way through. It didn't.

[Orion]

Are you actually shooting 65-70# at a 30-inch draw?  Spine is measured at 26 inches.  Static spine that is.  So, if you buy arrows spined 65-70, that's the static spine, regardless of length, unless you cut them less than 26 inches.  

However, the dynamic spine changes with shaft/arrow length.  Generally, the rule is to add 5# of spine for each inch you draw more than 28 inches.  One would also add spine if you were to shoot heavier broadheads, and fast flite strings.

You need to determine, or tell us, what your draw weight is at the draw length you're shooting.  Then you can figure out, or we can suggest, the correct spined arrow.  

I suggest you get your hands on a good trad archery book like Traditional Bowhunter's handbook by T.J Conrads.

[Bjorn]

You have gotten some very good advice posted here. Let me add my two cents too for what it is worth always buy the best shafting you can afford you can't make decent arrows with crappy wood. And your arrow is at least as important as your bow.
The grade 'Premium' means that the grain will run along the shaft for at least 22 inches somewhere along the full.
Cedar can be quite durable depending on how you cut the shaft and the wood grain immediately behind the point or broadhead.

[pseman]

Orion, I would be shooting them from a 51#@29" r/d longbow(JK Kanati). I was basing the 65-70# spine on what I have read on here as to spine selection. I would want 30" arrows to allow for some broadhead clearance. I may not be right on as far as spine, as I have not shot wood before.

So, do I understand correctly that when purchasing shafts, you first determine the spine# based on final arrow length and purchase shafts with that spine regardless of the shaft length? In other words if I bought 65/70# full length shafts and cut them to 30", they would still be spined 65/70#?

   

[Brian Krebs]

that is a good question pse man; because spine is measured from the middle of the shaft while the shaft lays on two points not at the ends of the shaft.
 If you cut off one end of the shaft; the middle then will not be what it was before; and that alone could make it a different spine.
 I am curious too - as to the answer to your question.....

[Orion]

PSE:  Given your bow weight and draw length, and the fact that a Kanati is cut at least to center, 65-70 pounds should work well for you.  A Kanati is a fairly high performance bow (add 5#). And you're probably using a fast flite string (add 5#.  And you're drawing an inch more than 28 inches (add 5#.  (51+5+5+5=66)  This is kind of ballpark stuff, but it usually works out fairly closely.  On cut to center bows such as your Kanati, you could probably get away with even more spine, but probably don't need to, and wood above 65-70# spine is a little more difficult to come by.  

Brian, static spine is measured a number of different ways, but the most common is between two posts placed 26 inches apart.  A 2 pound weight is placed on the shaft half-way between the two posts and the amount it deflects the arrow is read on a scale.  Some spine testers use a 1.94 pound weight and place the posts 28 inches apart.  The results are almost identical.  The crucial thing is that the measurements are taken at 26 or 28inches.  It doesn't really matter where on the arrow those measurements are taken.  If the shaft is 32 inches long, most would center the shaft on the posts, leaving 3 inches on either side.  But you could also place one end over one post and leave six inches hanging out over the other end.  The result should be the same.  There may be minute differences, but usually not enough to be detected/measurable.

If you cut 6 inches of shaft off of one end, it will still spine the same.  However, this will increase its dynamic spine.  I.e., its static spine will still be 65#, for example, but it will shoot like an arrow spined much heavier.

[Brian Krebs]

thanks for that