Hand shock

[b.glass]

Is there anything else, besides tips that are too heavy, that causes hand shock?

[dutchwarbow]

bad tiller; too much bend close to the fades(for longer bows).

Nick

[b.glass]

Thanks Nick.

[Eric Krewson]

The worst culprit is having the limbs out of time with each other. If one limb is too stiff for your shooting style it moves quicker than the other limb to the static position and "Whack", you get a bunch of hand shock as the result.

[ChristopherO]

Excessive reflex, also, caused handshock.  I have a Martin Pioneer LB with reflex and it has a good thump to it.  It was designed for more energy but handshock was a side "benefit".  A bow with stringfollow should be the most soft bow to shoot.

[Pat B]

I don't think reflex adds to hand shock and a bit of set doesn't lessen it. The set will make for a sweeter shooting bow but if the tips are thick or the limbs out of time hand shock will still occur. Limb timing like Eric said and excessive tip weight are the primary culprits. IMO.

[dutchwarbow]

i must disagree christopher, handshock comes when a relatively big part of the stored energy can't be transferred to the arrow.

this comes when the tiller doesn't match the ront profile. You can actually have really wide tips, but in that case the tiller should be very, very elliptical. This causes horrible stack.

A bow that only bends at the fades, for example, can be very smooth shooting, but only if the midlimbs to tips are very, very narrow and lightweight. A good example would be the 'mollegabet' bow, wich is the correct name for bows that are commonly called 'holmegaards'.

we usually leave the tips of the bow pretty stiff, so incase we keep them wide, they cause some bad handshock. The tiler should always be based on the front profile.

Nick

[Dano]

This is a great conversation, All good input. I have a hybrid longbow, lots of reflex, when out of time that reflex will hurt ya. Tip size and thickness is an easy fix. Limb timing, that's the fix that takes some patience and finesse. Shooting the bow in really should be a big part of the tiller process. There's just so much tweaking that needs to be done at this point.

[dutchwarbow]

I suggest everybody to read the 'mass formula' chapter in 'The Bowyer's Bible 4' by Steve Gardner. He explains the link between the frontprofile, tiller, the actual finetuneing very well. It was an eyeopener for me!

Nick

[George Tsoukalas]

Getting confused all  up and down here. Heavy tips and  bad limb timing will cause shock. Bend in the handle bows that  bend too much in the handle will cause shock too. Limbs that are too heavy for the draw length may cause it.  Hand shock is not caused by reflexing or defexing limbs. Stacking and hand shock are 2 separate issues and really are not related.  Jawge

[JPS]

I think lots of reflex can seem to be the culprit on some bows but actually its most likely heavy limbs. Reflex designs can make a bow faster so if the outer limbs are too heavy and moving extra fast its gonna give you a jolt as the tips try to go past brace. With less weight on the tips the string tension can stop them faster when they come slamming home. . Limb timing as mentioned is another common culprit. I think Ive had bows with both problems on the same bow.

[DCM]

Hand shock is the symptom of an imbalance.  If you either have a) lots of stored energy in the first few inches of draw or b) lots of mass on the outer limb, or both, you have lots of energy to spend at the bottom of the power stroke.  If it doesn't gets spent, either into the arrow or into stopping the opposing limb, then it will vibrate the bow to dissipate the energy.  So, as I read it, basically everything posted so far seem to apply.

[ChristopherO]

I have no doubt off limb timing, tip weight, heavy limbs and bend through the handle bows  can cause handshock.  I am not disputing those senarios.  I will say,though that a strong reflex can cause it, also.  The Martin LB mentioned above has slender limbs and appropriate sized tips and everyone who shoots it for the first time remarks about the jolt it gives off.  Folks all the time mention on these boards that H. Hill type longbows have a tendency to deliver strong energy to the hand, also.  But a good R/D bow should be always smooth.  That is because the deflex smooths out the effect of reflexed limb and tips.
DutchWB, remember the chapter in the 2nd, I believe, TTBB about recrurve bows?  The author even states that this type bow is very attractive but much more sensitive to shoot due to their shorter design and the Set Back Handle, what we call reflex today.  In the all wood recurves I've made most of the setback is negligable due to set so I've not experienced a hard shot when releasing the arrow.  That is due to my novice bow making skills, though.
Oh, yes, I did enjoy the chapter on the Mass Principle and learned very much from it, exspecially what you mentioned about profile matching the tiller.  Yet, that may not negate handshock completely on specific style bows.

[ranger 3]

How do you time the limbs?

[Dano]

What I do is once I start shooting a bow in and close to even tiller, adjust the upper limb till the bow is smooth and quiet. Adjusting arrow shelf height at this point as well.

[ranger 3]

Thanks Dano

[b.glass]

The bow I was asking about is longer than I have ever made. It is 68+ inches tip to tip. It has even limbs and I did tiller it with more bend toward the handle. It is not shot in yet but right now is 57# at 30". It also has hand shock at my 26" draw. It is a BBO. I was thinking the C tillered bows are suppose to have more hand shock because of the bend in the handle so that is part of my problem. The lower limb also is a little stiffer so is this causing the limbs to be out of time? Could the equal length limbs also be part of it?

[Hermann From Bavaria]

what do you think guys what a to lightweight arrow does? isnt it possible that such arrow can cause handshock? on one of my osagebows there is a difference between shooting heavy hunting arrows and  shooting light target arrows, cause the heavier arrow can take more energy.

also i expect the handling of a bow as a thing which can cause handshock. if you place your hand up and down the handle the forces working on the limbs are uneven and so the limbtiming is wrong.

greets

[Dano]

I don't think the equal length limbs has anything to do with it. When you say the lower limb is stiffer, how much? Have you measured it from the fades on each limb?

Yeah Herm, arrow weight is a factor, unused energy.

[bmgarto]

Here are a few other things to think about. I have done some basic tests to see. Bighams says that hand shock has to do with riser weight. I tested this. I have a bow that has some sock and I taped a pound bag around it and shot it. It calmed it down. It only makes since. If you have ever shot a heavy gun versus a light gun of the same caliber, the heavy one has less recoil. Part of perceived shock is string twang. A FF string vibrates less after the shot then a B50 I believe. This test improved the string twang which we sometimes confuse as shock or recoil.  Cat whiskers made a big difference as well. I also tested light versus heavy arrows. Heavy arrows improved the shock as well. I'm reading that forward handle bows have less shock because it gets your hand in front of the limbs. They say deflex helps eliminate it as well. If you think about it, deflex gets your hand more in front of the bow as well. I just bought a Navajo Apachie and had two Kanati bows. They are both extreme relflex deflex and they had the least shock I have found. I think there are many factors to this issue.