Who would hunt without sights?????

[ChuckC]

I was shooting in the late 60"s too, like a lot of you.  What I remember was battles back then between sight shooters and instinctive shooters.

going a step further, there was a fight between all of the classes, including gap shooters, string walkers etc etc.  It all came down to competition..  sound familiar ?  Then the compound came along and made it even easier for everyone to compete.

Anytime you add a sighting device, you can possibly increase total accuracy.  Add more or better devices and accuracy can go up.  Add stabilizers, two point aiming (peeps), I am surprised nobody allows the use of a gyroscopic stabilizer...  anyway.  Back then it totally split certain groups or clubs, mine was one of them.  Target archers did one thing hunters did another thing and they nearly never mixed.  

Why ?    Competition.

MOST instinctive shooters cannot compete with MOST sight shooters... at least in target archery, which of course is nearly always what you have if points and scoring is involved.

And they were always on us about...  you know what...here it comes...another blast from the past...

Remember buying into that phrase..." you owe it to your quarry to use the best, highest tech, most accurate, most deadly (add some more stuff if you want)...in other words...I am a bad, uncaring person if I don't buy the newest matthew's bow each year, plunk 1,000 dollars worth of extras on it and be the best I can be.  Remeber...I owe it to the quarry.

Then those same people take this highly accurate stuff and go and shoot out to 100 yards or so.  Why ?     competition of course.  

 "Heck, it was the only shot he gave me so I took it."  "He wouldn't come in any closer (than 60, 70 80 yards) so I took the only shot I got...isn't he a beauty..Pope and Younger for sure."   " He was getting away so I shot".

I owe it to the game.    ?????

Can someone please tell me something.   Now, let me preface this.  I am as good a person as anyone.  I cried when Old Yeller was killed.  I give my dogs table scraps when they look up at me with those pretty brown eyes...  I have been known to stop and help an old lady across the street (a long time ago.  when it was OK to do that)....

Where does it say in the rule book that I owe any critter anything.  I am out there to kill it.
I am trying to push a sharpened stick thru its vital organs and cause it to stop being alive, and I am doing this so I can eat its flesh.
How and why do I owe it anything ?

Justification for this competition ?
ChuckC

[LITTLEBIGMAN]

Quite simply, there is no need for them.

[Ron LaClair]

A lot of people shot with sights in the 60's after they started marking the yardage on the stakes of the Field courses. Before that sight shooters had to guess the yardage and then adjust their sight after the first arrow went high or low. On the NFAA Field Round you shot 4 arrows at each of the 28 targets which were from 10 to 80 yards. Shooting that many arrows in a round most people shot light weight bows, 32 to 38# was the average bow weight for Field Rounds. When these people switched to their hunting bows in the fall the average weight was 45#. A lot of people still used sights on their hunting bows because they   weren't use to shooting without sights.

There were still a lot of people that shot barebow for hunting as well as Field Rounds. Then there were people like me that shot sights for compition and no sights for hunting.

My "target bow" was 40# and my hunting bows were 55,60 and 70#.

This picture was taken in the early to mid 60's...the TV didn't have a Remote..    

   

[NTXStickbow]

I learned to shoot without sights using a fiberglass 35# bow with twine as its string.  When I was older, my dad bought a compound bow for me and I thought it was soo cool but I continued to shoot without sights and even won a few 3-D competitions in my class (youth compound, no sights, no release aid).  About 8 years ago, I upgraded my compound with a PSE model and it came complete with all kinds of goodies that I wasn't used to like sights, overdraw, peep-sight, release and increased let-off.  I worked with that bow, sighting it in and getting it just right.
 
My first hunting situation was an elk hunt in Colorado and I was lugging around this bow, up and down mountain slopes for days.  It was real heavy after four or five hours.  So my dad and I sat down for a break and our first elk came marching down a trail, caught us off guard, but he was heading right for me.  My dad didn't have a shot and as the elk turned and stood quartering away from me, I let the arrow go and it hit him high in the shoulder.  It was a horrible shot and I screwed up an opportunity of a lifetime.  We trailed him for a few miles until the blood became non-existent, we never saw that elk again. I recounted the events that led up to the shot.  Long hiking, heavy bow, heart pounding, and all of those things that have to be lined up just right to get the arrow in the kill zone.  I haven't hunted with that bow since.

My recurve is light and hardly cumbersome even with a four-arrow quiver attached. The mechanics of pulling the string to anchor and releasing  when I'm focused on where I want the arrow to go is so much easier!  I need to sell the compound due to lack of use!!

[Two Arrows]

Some people should be encouraged to use a sight. For example:
 
"Ya know Buford, you've been shooting that recurve for what, going on 15 years now? I really have admired that bow, she shore is pretty. You shoot pretty regular don't you? Yep, I thought you did. Dang near every day or every other day for that matter, right? Thought so. Hey, about those groups you been shooting, I've noticed they've stayed pretty consistant over the last 15 years now. They got a certain kind of shotgun pattern to them. Oh, you already knew that? Ok. Ever try anything to tighten up that blast pattern, err, group? Tried it all huh? I hear ya. You know if you ever go out deer hunting, you might want to try something that will make things a little more consistant. Oh, you have been hunting. For how long? The whole 15 years huh? Any luck? Too bad buddy. One of these days, one of these days. Hey, if ya ever need any help tracking or dragging one out, give me a call. In fact, let's make that a priority for next season! What do you mean how are we gonna do that? Well, you said you tried everything to improve your shooting right? Ok, but have you ever tried using a sight on your bow? Yes, I'm well aware that it is a recurve Buford. Why are you grasping your chest and breathing so hard by the way? Anyway, so what? Your buddies? What about your buddies? What do you mean they will ridicule you? No they won't! You really believe that, huh Buford. So your saying that your buddies will say that your setup isn't traditional if you ad one of those so-called thingamajiggers there. Well Buford, I've known you for many years now and you've always called yourself a traditional shooter. And, I say this with all due respect Buford, in all those years you missed just about every target and certainly every deer you've ever shot at. Yep, I know that you know that, I hear ya. The romance is great and all, I'm just suggesting something that might improve your shooting and it might make things alot more fun too. Nah, don't worry about your "buddies" Buford. They'll still let you hang with the group. They'll get over it. Well, maybe."

[xia_emperor]

we forget that it is about having fun, not about making rules. I am an archer. I hunt and do not put restrictions on having fun. some people will never be able to shoot bare bow very well, and others will. you should be able to do what ever it takes for you to shoot at your best. if that means a sights then great, if that mean bare bow, great. just have fun and shoot your best.

[The Gopher]

tinkering with sights, rests, stabalizers, etc. is the reason I quite the compound. i would spend half my time adjusting and the other half worrying that i adjusted them right. you guessed it, that left me with no time to actually shoot. i'm not bashing sights though if that is your style of shooting go right ahead, its just not for me, thanks, Dan.

[Fletcher]

I shot a recurve with sights for many years until the late 70's sometime when I bought a used Damon Howatt Hi-Speed.  It was so pretty that I couldn't bring myself to drill it and started shooting barebow.  Never went back to sights.

[Dave Bulla]

Well, I'm not quite "vintage" enough to be able to say I was shooting recurves back in the 50's or 60's but I did start in the 70's when compounds were pretty new and there were still a fair number of folks shooting recurves.  I had ears and I listened to the grownups when they talked about anything about hunting and I've read hunting stories since I first learned to read.  Personally, I recall some of my cousins had sights and some didn't.  Can't really recall which ones did better on deer but I was pretty darned young then.

Funny thing though, it really wasn't much different than today.  Some guys were stubborn and others were easy to influence.  Guys who had lots of time might have learned to shoot bare bow where others would try sights to get better accuracy sooner.  Maybe they'd try sigthts then try bare bow or vice versa.  As already stated by others, there were target archers and hunting archers and marketing ploys for both groups.  Advances in archery equipment were usually made on the target range and MOST people believed that anything that made you shoot better at targets would help you shoot better at animals.  Applies to rifle shooting right?  That's still true today.  If a guy spends eleven and a half months shooting at a range and goes to a couple of field meet whenever he gets a chance but then gets only a week or two to actually HUNT deer, I figure he's gonna go with what he knows.  I figure that's why so many old recurves have sight holes in them.  the owners spent far more time shooting target and field type archery than they did hunting, of course most of them at least would try sights at some point.

Ask yourself though, what is the best teacher of what works in real life hunting situations?  

Well that would be actually hunting and taking a shot at a deer (hit or miss) wouldn't it.  But way back in the 50's and 60's just how common were deer?  My old hunting buddy told me he remembered reading in the paper here in Missouri that a deers track had been found by a farmer!  The paper actually sent a reporter out to take a picture of it for the paper.  So, how many average bow hunters ever even got a legitimate shot at a deer?  How many magazines put out useful information about deer behavior that could really be used by hunters?  Remember when the terms scrape and rub were interchangeble by most hunters?  Remember when most hunters thought deer rubbed trees because the velvet got itchy?  And just what does any of that have to do with using sights?  Well, as I recall, damn few hunters back in the day new much about deer.  They didn't get to see lots of them and observe behavior and learn.  Most importantly, shot opportunities at real deer were so few and far between that not many hunters figured out that unknown shot distances taken at a live deer under high stress, heart pounding conditions were not always best taken with sights.  Sure, there were guys in some parts of the country who had lots of opportunities at game animals and from what I can tell by stories I've read, most of those guys were instinctive shots.  Guys like Chester Stevenson, Ben Pearson, Fread Bear, Howard Hill etc.  I'm lumping all bare bow styles under "instinctive" even though guys like Hill shot split vision and many shot some type of gap style.  Even Hill made it plain that a hunter should choose early on whether or not he wanted to be a target archer or a hunting archer because the two styles surely didn't mix.

I think it is the inherent difference between trad and compound that has changed things today.  Before the compound and "letoff", it was simply more efficient to shoot a fluid style without wasting time at full draw and instinctive (or any form of barebow aiming) worked best with a trad bow in hunting situations.  With the invention of the compound and improvements in letoffs it rapidly became more efficient to draw a bow earlier during a hunting encounter, hold longer and therefore aim better in a hunting situation.  But how many guys had the hunting experience to figure that out?  Shorter and shorter compound bows have made the canting of the bow totally unnesessary in all but the worst conditions.  The speed of todays lightweight arrows out of a compound and the complexity of most of the elevated rests make shooting one instinctively a poor endeavor.  Heck, the few times I've shot a compound in the last couple of years I couldn't even see the arrow go to the target.  Basically, compounds have made sights on a bow a very functional aide.

Oh, but we were talking about stickbows huh.  Well, then we have to remember the length of the bow and the need to cant in many situations, the lack of letoff and honestly, the simplicity and pure joy of shooting a bow with no sights.  Then there is the "backlash" effect Asbell writes about where guys just want to get rid of the gadgets or return to their childhood.  Sure it takes longer to get good but we're not in this for instant gratification.  At least I hope not...  We don't even attempt the ridiculously long shots that were common back then.  We have it drilled into us to get close and learn our effective range.  I think todays bowhunter has SO much information available wether he or she wants to shoot compound or trad that the learning curve is totally different than 50 years ago.  Just about anywhere in the country a bowhunter can get into a decent hunting area within about an hour from their house and they'll actually have a real chance at a deer or other large game.

Todays trad bowhunter is on average far more experienced in deer hunting than when I was a kid.  Most of us know that there are trade offs to shooting trad wether barebow or with a sight and we make our choices accordingly.  The nice thing is I don't think very many trad shooters would actually ridicule another trad shooter for shooting with sights.  Give him a good natured ribbing sure.... but ridicule?  Naah.

I always say, shooting instinctively isn't so much a method as it is a goal.  Ya gotta learn the basics first and if it takes a sight and a clicker to get it right, by God use them.  I keep an open mind about other shooters use of sights and I expect the same in return about my use of no sights.

As Gene Wensel said in one of his articles, "There's no shame in aiming."

So who would hunt without sights?  Why, I would.

[-Achilles-]

I hear this alot..."I dont use sights because if I bump it up against a tree it will break or bend or work loose and I dont want to have to worry about that"...you guys must use your bows for machettes...lol...I never had a problem with a sight working loose when I used them...once its set add a  drop of superglue and its SET

[Dan Worden]

I'm going to toss this into the mix. Using the common rationale that instincitve is just like throwing a baseball, shooting a basketball, throwing a football, etc...

In all of those things there are various skill levels for every person. Otherwise we'd all be multi-millionaire sports stars.

Given that fact, why is it such an issue to use sights? There is no way every archer on this board is either pro, AAA,or even AA level and no matter how much some people practice they just are NOT going to get there. (or once again we'd all be millionaire's) So why is there shame and ridicule applied to people that want to shoot better?

How much fun do you have on the days you can't hit squat? Do you still shoot for two hours or do you hang it up early?  

If someone wants/needs equipment help to get to the skill level they desire let them. It's no skin off your nose and really makes no difference to the rest of the world.

[camoman45]

it's a traditional thing, i've always shot barebow even with compound, but mainly because i started out like that

[Rico]

There is no way every archer on this board is either pro, AAA,or even AA level and no matter how much some people practice they just are NOT going to get there.

  But everyone can play baseball or what have ya. And when you are the one inventing the rules like bowhunting you can move the plate were ever you see fit in order to be the pro.

[George D. Stout]

Most of my cohorts in the 60's used sights, but I never wanted nor needed them.  I've always been able to hit well without them and think it just takes a big "want-to" more than anything else.  Hunting without sights is another way of freeing one's self of excessive fiddling.  It does take some committment, which seems to be in short supply nowadays.

[TonyW]

"I'm going to toss this into the mix. Using the common rationale that instincitve is just like throwing a baseball, shooting a basketball, throwing a football, etc... "

Exactly. Who would put a sight on a baseball, a basketball, or a football?

And if you "can't hit squat," maybe you need to move closer to squat instead pretending to be Howard Hill, Babe Ruth, Michael Jordan, or Johnny Unitas.

[Rico]

If your committment to archery practice is in short supply you can make it up with a committment to get closer to your quarry.

[Dan Worden]

Originally posted by Rico:
  But everyone can play baseball or what have ya. And when you are the one inventing the rules like bowhunting you can move the plate were ever you see fit in order to be the pro.

Originally posted by TonyW:
And if you "can't hit squat," maybe you need to move closer to squat instead pretending to be Howard Hill, Babe Ruth, Michael Jordan, or Johnny Unitas.

So does this mean you get the point?  

How many guys actually "move the plate" or "move closer" compared to those that keep shooting from the "pro" stakes unsuccesfully?

[DeerSpotter]

Originally posted by xia_emperor:
we forget that it is about having fun, not about making rules. I am an archer. I hunt and do not put restrictions on having fun. some people will never be able to shoot bare bow very well, and others will. you should be able to do what ever it takes for you to shoot at your best. if that means a sights then great, if that mean bare bow, great. just have fun and shoot your best.

Could not be said any better          

[Rico]

How many guys actually "move the plate" or "move closer" compared to those that keep shooting from the "pro" stakes unsuccesfully
  Dan we are talking about bowhunting and not competition shooting aren't we?
  I would say everyone that shoots a stickbow has or should move the plate closer when it comes to bowhunting.
   There is no shame in not being able to kill a deer at 35yds wait till he is in your effective range even if its 10yds or less.

[Onestringer]

I pulled my own rant, nope I don't use a sight.  I have shot without sights for 30 years now.  If someone does cool for them.