Osage Pin Knot (opinions needed)

[Stiks-n-Strings]

I have an osage stave that I ran down to the first good ring while green. Stave is sealed on back and ends.
I found a very small pin knot in about where mid limd will end up and was wanting to know if absolutey need to run it down another ring or can I sinew it and pull it off?
If need be I can run it down another ring but I think I might be cutting it close to come in at finished weight Shooting for about 55lbs at 28.5".
I can easily get a 67"to 68" bow out of it but shooting for about 64

[Shaun]

pin knots do not usually present any problem. In a perfect world, you leave a little pimple of wood as you follow the ring up to a pin knot, but I have often cut or sanded them flat with no trouble. They tend to be very solid and are too small to make much grain swirl around them.

[Tom Leemans]

You can always back with rawhide for insurance.

[John Scifres]

Shaun and Tom covered the pin knot.  As for length, if it were me, I'd go with the shorter length.  Any osage bow I've made over 64" kicked too hard to make it a comfortable shooter.  Get it to a circular tiller and get the mass out of the tips and 64" should be just right for a 28.5" draw.

[Stiks-n-Strings]

Thanks Fellers.
 I'll just leave it with the ring I got and if I have plintering or anything I'll put some rawhide or sinew on it.

 I was actually planning on a sinew backing anyway to try and give it a little more snap.
Kris

[Dano]

Every body has to sinew a bow at least once, it's always best when it's the plan from the start.

[Osagetree]

Some pin knots are only the remnants of thorns and are no concern.  
Some pin knots on green staves may check if not sealed as it dries.
Some pin knots can be where the bow gives up under tension. Watch for the ones closer to the edge of a limb.

If your limbs are thinned out a bit: look on the belly side,,, if the knot does not show on the belly it shouldn't be an issue. This type of pin knot was probably a limb that lived a few years and penetrates several growth rings but still ends or the limb died off on the ring you've chased for the back.

Most knots can be worked around and incorperated in a bow if you use common sense when doing such. Try to think of it like this; If a portion of the wood (your knot) is not working wood (tension / compresion), then you must have adaquate movement in the wood before, after and around the non-working wood of your limb.

[Eric Krewson]

Sinew backing a bow over 60" is a no win situation unless you are doing it to protect a flawed place in the wood.  You will add more weight to the limb(reduced performance) with sinew than you will gain in increased "snap"

[Stiks-n-Strings]

Well I ran it down another ring and left plenty around the knot this time. It goes all the way through. Still got plenty of wood and plan on a 64" bow

 I have a bow I was working on and ended up losing 3" of one tip ( the bow I was working on in the post "and here we go, first self bow ) it is now 54" after I took some off the other end to even it up a little.
 I assume this would be a good candidate for sinew. If so what kind of draw could I expect?

[Paul/KS]

I made a bow from some knotty osage. Soaking super glue into the knots from the belly side before working it down seemed to work pretty well...

[John Scifres]

54" would require sinew if I were making it.  Even then, it would be a bendy handle, plains style, probably drawn to the chest.  You could draw it full though, especially if you flip the tips a bit.  Expect stack though unless you do something more like an asiatic composite bow.

[ALW]

I've heard some folks say to leave an extra ring of wood over a knot for a little protection and others say not to do that as the extra ring will/could pop off when the limbs start bending.  What's the best method.  

I have a questionable osage stave I'm working on right now with pin knots and several bigger knots and I'm taking the whole back down to one ring.  Don't mean to get off topic but just thought I'd ask your alls opinion.  Thanks.

Aaron

[Art B]

I personally don't think it's necessary to leave an extra ring over a knot Aaron. Looks bad as.......ART

[Eric Krewson]

Don't leave an island of wood around a pin. Jim Hamm recommend leaving an island this in his book. I tried this method when I was a beginning bow maker, the island lifted, splintering the grain below it.

I have been carefully following the grain over a pin for the last 14 years with no problems.

[John Scifres]

As always, it depends.  But the general answer is to do as best you can to remove it down to one ring as Art and Eric say.  I have had these bandaids lift but the concept, done correctly, is intuitively appealing.

Assuming the angle of the bandaid's edge isn't too great.  And it extends for a fairly long space along the limb.  I can see it helping to prevent a splinter around a knot.  I've gotten away with it enough to not discount it.  But it is ugly.  

For me, a better choice is a rawhide backing on questionable staves.

[ALW]

Thanks guys.  

Aaron

[Stiks-n-Strings]

So what I gather from what you guys are saying about knots is no island around a pin knot. Everything I've read until this post says leave an island but what you guys are saying makes makes sense.

 Two questions to clear this up a bit..

 #1 how big is too big to be considered a pin knot 1/32", 1/16" or what?

 #2 What about a knot that isn't considered a pin knot? Island or not?

[Stiks-n-Strings]

TTT

[Stiks-n-Strings]

ttt

[Osagetree]

Kris, I don't have my camera here so here's my description of a pin knot.

PIN KNOT: A loose term to describe a dark brown spot that is slightly raised higher than a chased growth ring. The brown spot comes in various shapes, sizes and forms but, usually a little bigger than a pencil lead and does not really compromise the fibers of the chased growth ring. Created as the tree attempted to sprout a limb shoot, or thorn during growth. This sprout or thorn died off just before the chased growth ring.
The term pin Knot being a loose term; is also used to describe small knots that do compromize the fibers of the chased growth ring. At that point the bow maker will decide whether or not to raise the knot by leaving several later growth rings above and around the limb shoot or thorn that died off or that was cut off above the chased growth ring. The choice to raise the knot or not to raise it is based on experience and the variables of the stave being addressed.

I still want to over to IN to cut sage!!!!