Broadhead choice, dead is dead.

[James Wrenn]

[HumbleHunter]

Thanks James for the pic. that's great stuff....HH

[Dave Lay]

But ya always want to prepare for the worst, that is a non perfect hit ie: scapula or whatever.  and James there are ribs bones over the vitals.. small but they are bones... I will repeat what I said about a million posts ago. Doc is to be commended for his work and sharing it with us . take it as Gospel, or use it as a guide or not at all, but he has put alot of work and money into this. I went with a little heavier gear after first reading his first tests and saw a increase in my recovery rate, I wish i could always make the textbook shot but i do slip up on occasion. its that shot where I want to put his findings into play.  Thanks to Ashby

[Ray Hammond]

Last time I checked, there's a great deal of deer hunting that takes place from trees, James..in fact, if its possible to believe it, I think MOST deer hunting takes place from trees, hence, hitting the scapula does come into play a great deal in whitetail hunting.

I didn't say Ed made GREAT PERSONAL SACRIFICE, STEVEB. What I did say was that he has done it without being paid to do it by anyone, and doesn't deserve to be maligned or have his character impuned because someone else can't accept that fact.

Usually those who can't see someone else doing something feel that way because THEY wouldn't do it.  

Ed's gotten to hunt a heck of a lot, travel to neat places, write it off as a business expense I am sure...but I've seen what he drives, wears, eats, and where he sleeps and if you think he's making some great living off this, you're just going to have to take my word for it...he could do an awful lot better for a lot less effort.

[owlbait]

James don't you shot heavy broadheads on skinny shafts? I know the design of Treesharks aren't the "optimum" according to the reports but alot of what you already do seems to fit into Ashby's reports.
Just a note. Phantoms are good heads and I would bet that Fred Eichler DOES get compensation for using them and most of the products he hunts with.
I've hunted enough to know that weird things happen in the woods when arrows are shot, if someone wants to try to prepare for worse case scenarios, it doesn't mean they will now take poor shots because the SUPER broadhead will make up for their inaccuracies.

[James Wrenn]

Owlbait I am not trying dispute the doctors ideas about any of his findings.I agree with most everything he has written.I just don't agree with the way it is presented as the only or best way for guys to set up for hunting deer and smaller game like most of us hunt here.Just because that is the best way to kill a large animal does not automaticly make it better for a thin skinned deer.I just don't like new archers coming on these sites and getting told that is the only way to kill stuff.If I was going to hunt a huge animal where busting bone was the only way to kill them I would set up that way.The problem comes up when new guys follow all these guide lines and go deer hunting they think they are shooting armor piercing rounds and can just hit an animal anywhere because they are going to get penitration.When in fact the only time you will need any of that is if you make a bad shot selection and shoot out of the kill zone.

Dave a sharp broadheads cut through ribs on deer and hogs.The cut very easy so there is not bones to break.

Ray I know most deer hunting is done from a tree and that is how I always hunt.I also know the only way you can shoot through the scapula and still hit the kill zone is if the deer is under you and quarteing or faceing you.Any other time you have hit too high and missed vitals even though you get a passthrough.That void you hear so much about between the lungs and the spine is always a hit above the spine where people shot too high.    When someone shoots a deer in the shoulder and arrows bounce out it is because they missed and if the arrow penitrated they still would not have recovered the animal. jmo

[owlbait]

ThanksJames. You know I still profess to wwjwd (what would James Wrenn do)  

[James Wrenn]

 Now that is funny Owlbait!    

Yes I love the skinny carbons and big broadheads.They do have a higher FOC because big heads are heavy.Because the arrows are on the heavy side I can shoot wide broadheads on them and still get ample penitration when needed from legal weight bows.I have also shot arrows that were under 400gns that had less FOC but worked very well.I shoot small broadheads on lightweight fast arrows.I feel that even with a lot of speed a light arrow and big broadhead is a bad combination but size the broadhead to the arrow and it is still deadly.

[Jedimaster]

Can I ask a question?  What broadhead's were you guys shooting BEFORE the good Doc's reports came out?  

I'm just curious, not bashing either side.  I would like to see how many overnight conversions there were.  Does anyone feel guilty because Grizzly heads were available long before you new that was the way to go?  Would a guy like me need to throw out his 15 year old two blade heads and go buy the single bevels?  I guess I might do just that, but honestly some of you guys have been using single bevel along time.  I recon the rest of us are not speaking from any particular experience so... why so dogmatic?

[swampbuck]

silly ???

Has anybody ever found a stone point that was napped on one side only ??

Talk about a dead horse,almost like comparing carbon's to wood's bla bla bla    

[Tree man]

Monterey. Yuo didn't come across as tooadversarial-I just didn't want to came across thgat way myself. Personally, I enjoy these discussions.
 Regarding Ribteks.-A bit of anecdotal evidence that doesn't prove anything in particular. The most impresive bone cutting performaces I have "autopsied" were from a Bear Razorhead shot as a 2 blade and a Ribtek 125s. I understand the logic of smooth ferrules-particularly a smooth transition into the ferrule at the front. It is easy to see how stepped front ferrules could impede penetration......but there are always variables and I'm not certain that the skeleton ferrule on a Ribtek is a negative. For one thing thetrailing edge/leading edge geometry is such that the transitions are pretty smooth. for another most of ust have witnessed the difference in multiple impact versus sustained force in driving weges or loosening bolts. I claim no proof that a Ribtek ferule is better just suggest thta it might be. I also note that the reinforcing ribs are such that they MAY induce rotation like a right single bevel ( I didn't observe that rotation in wound channels but confess that I never looked for it.) In any case, I know of one instance where a Ribtek from a light draw weight bow blew through the scapular ridge on a light animal(Javelina). It doesn't prove anything other than they CAN do it. I have shot several animals with Ribteks with good performance.

[James Wrenn]

Oh I agree Dan that all kinds of things happen.Like you I had rather have a little more than not enough. :)I am knocking anything anyone wants to use.We all have to find what works best for us.I am just giving my oppion on the subject like everyone else has and telling why I veiw things my way.I have shot a lot of broadheads so have used narrow STOS ect.I can tell you this that on a bad hit with any broadhead the bigger the head the more likly the chances of making a recovery.You are simply cutting more, putting more blood on the ground.More damage and more trail to follow.    Sure you still need enough bow to get the job done but in most cases we all have plenty even for the bad hits.

I had a large hog lung about the time I dropped the string.One of those slow motion moments where you wanted to grap the attow back from the air.  :(  The Treeshark hit dead center the ham.It went though and hit the lower leg bone breaking it into and hitting dirt to stop.I was able to get behind him and give him a follow up shot that finished him off before he hit the thick stuff.Shooting a smaller broadhead would have done nothing to better the situation but that 2" wide broadhead slowed him down and left a lot of blood.More penitration when you can break the heaviest bone on an animal on exit is a mute point.I just hate to see people get caught up into thinking animals are built out of concrete or something.The biggest broadhead you can shoot through something will always be better than a small one stuck in the dirt as far as bringing something home. jmo

[Richie Nell]

I haven't read ALL the posts on this thread but I have read alot of posts concerning Dr. Ashby's broadhead work.
It is amazing to me how ANYONE for any reason can argue with what he has proved with his work.

The most common argument seems to be "Perfect shot placement and sharp broadhead is all you need".  YA THINK? No kiddin'.  

Obviously Dr. Ashby's work is for the benefit of "not so perfect" shot placement, which we ALL make.

Having these ridiculous posts made by these  unsecure people is emabarrassing to the traditional and nontraditional bowhunting community.

I believe Dr. Ashby's work is one topic that is exempt from anyone else's opinion.  

Just read and learn. Period.

[James Wrenn]

I believe Dr. Ashby's work is one topic that is exempt from anyone else's opinion

Well if that is the case it should not be put out on public forums for debate.    No one is saying his work is not great.The debate comes when people think it is a cure all for thin skinned game like deer.The doctor is pretty straight forward about the kind of animals he shoots.His methods seem to be the very best for them.Some of us however do not believe it is the best for every type of animal on the planet.That is where any debate about it comes in.And even then it is just giving another point of veiw not to discredit his findings for large heavy boned animals.

[Dave Lay]

Jedi.. shootin zwickey deltas before  and Zwickey deltas after... on deer, hogs turkey and bear...

[Richie Nell]

James...What I am saying is that his work is not up for debate.  If I am not mistaken this forum is not here for debating ONLY.  It is to provide ignorant people like myself with valuable information.  
I understand what you are saying about NOT NEEDING single beveled Grizzlies to kill deer. I do not disagree with that or with people using other setups.  Sure, there are other broadhead setups that will work fine.  
When determining the best, what setup is going to penetrate whitetail deer better than the best setup for the Asian Water Buffalo.
We are in a unique situation where we can work backwards.  From the very best broadhead setup we can work backwards to determine what to use to harvest smaller animals we like to hunt.
But what we can't do, AS OF RIGHT NOW, is work forward and find a broadhead setup that is better for the "less than perfect" shot for any animal on the planet.
Richie

[wingnut]

Dang I can't believe there are eight pages of people with opinions.  Now if you want to express fact with backing.  Go out and document a few hundred kills with your favorite setups.  Document arrow placement, conditions, do an necropsy on the animal to determine cause of death then take the time to put it all together.  Now publish your findings and I for one will do a comparison to the findings that the good Dr. has documented.

Then we can make an educated decision without conjecture and unsupported opinion.

Let us know when your done and we'll take a few moments to review your years of data and findings.  Then we will critisize your report because it doesn't match my favorite setup.

LOL

Mike

[James Wrenn]

Richie I know what you ment.Hunting season is over and we are just killing time on these threads.    I usually stay away from these debates because I know they really don't matter.In the end we are all going to do what we think is best and there really is no right or wrong if it works. It is all good.

[monterey]

Originally posted by Tree man:
 I have "autopsied" were from a Bear Razorhead shot as a 2 blade and a Ribtek 125s. I understand the logic of smooth ferrules-particularly a smooth transition into the ferrule at the front. It is easy to see how stepped front ferrules could impede penetration......but there are always variables and I'm not certain that the skeleton ferrule on a Ribtek is a negative. For one thing thetrailing edge/leading edge geometry is such that the transitions are pretty smooth. for another most of ust have witnessed the difference in multiple impact versus sustained force in driving weges or loosening bolts. I claim no proof that a Ribtek ferule is better just suggest thta it might be. I also note that the reinforcing ribs are such that they MAY induce rotation like a right single bevel ( I didn't observe that rotation in wound channels but confess that I never looked for it.) In any case, I know of one instance where a Ribtek from a light draw weight bow blew through the scapular ridge on a light animal(Javelina). It doesn't prove anything other than they CAN do it. I have shot several animals with Ribteks with good performance.

Thanks for the Ribtek background.  I'm still willing to consider using my 190's if I can find a way to smooth up the ferrule.

When they first came out there was a lot of talk about wood shafts blowing through the ferrules.  That concerned me so I did a test shooting two into a pile of bricks with a 65# wheel bow.  The POC did bust through  :(   but by using a hardening agent I was able to defeat that problem.  Here's some pics.

 

 

These two are the plain untreated POC.

 

 

These two are a poc shaft hardened with min wax wood hardener.

The bent head and broken shaft did not overly concern me since the arrows were fishtailing a lot from the wheel bow.  It hit the bricks on an angle and of course the bricks were not especially straight either.

This convinced me that I could use the Ribteks without concern for the poc jamming through the ferrules as long as the poc was treated or footed.

Maybe the ferrules could be smoothed with some jb weld or even ferrule cement?

Interestingly, a lot of gus looked at these pics and came to very different conclusions which were pretty much based on their pre-existing opinions!  

[Richie Nell]

Quote...."In the end we are all going to do what we think is best and there really is no right or wrong if it works. It is all good".

You could not be more correct.
 
It is perfectly fine to choose NOT to take the advice and put into practice Dr. Ashby's work.  
It is the people that choose to debate his findings and say they have better that are so ridiculous.