Broadhead choice, dead is dead.

[outbackbob48]

Single edge broadheads is nothing new. Some stone heads were made with only single bevel on each edge look just like a grizzly only alot older. Sometimes I think we just keep reinventing the wheel,over an over. Bob

[NY Yankee]

Although we would like to think so, a deer just inst a big game animal. Elk are just big deer and a moose is just a bigger deer. My point is that while I like Ashby's studies for the time and effort put into them, he is talking about shooting huge boned buffalo with hides an inch thick or more. He is looking at the most extreme performance you would ever need from a hand drawn bow and arrow. While his
basic information is valuable to know, it doesn't reflect what 90 percent of bow hunters need to know. The results of various shots on deer type animals with deer hunting equipment. I would rather read a pole on 1000 bow hunters about their shots on game. Then we could form some real opinions.

[HumbleHunter]

just my two cents

I thought Dr. Ashby's report was awesome and appreciate the posting of it. I don't see ANYTHING AT ALL in it that should ruffle the feathers of anybody. I myself have been doing research on the topic of light vs. heavy arrows. I couldn't have been happier to find this report. My studies have found that Kinetic Energy has little to do with penetration. If it was KE a super light super fast arrow would out penetrate heavier arrows.

This is the way I see it. It's only my opinion which is really not much at all. I don't plan on shooting at game over 25 yards max. I believe with enough practice I could learn the arc of any arrow   at that distance. Giving that said WHY wouldn't I want to get the VERY highest TPI out of the set up? Say I place a not so perfect placed shot on a hog or deer and hit bone? Wouldn't I want it to go on through the bone, and through organs and through the other side? Seems to me it's a YES on all the above. As stated earlier in this blog NOBODY ALWAYS puts a PERFECT shot on their game.

Two quotes I've heard recently that rang true:

"A problem I've seen through the years that alot of bowhunters get themselves into is worrying about speed. Archery has never been about speed."

"through practice you can master the arc of any arrow, no matter how heavy or light and be accurate"

Sorry it got alittle lengthy guys, have a good day. HH

[Bjorn]

I for one found Dr. Ashbys work to be very helpful desite the fact that I only hunt hogs and maybe deer. Will I implement all of what he recommends? No, but the parts that I think are relevant for me will get special attention.

[SteveB]

Say I place a not so perfect placed shot on a hog or deer and hit bone? Wouldn't I want it to go on through the bone,  

What bone might you be talking about?

Steve

[bayoulongbowman]

this thread starts off confusing to me, dead is dead....yeah and then there is recovery , pentration, etc.....the debate goes on and on!!!all BH's arent equal>>>--->> marco I agree with hunble hunter!!!

[laddy]

i like what Ashby says, I found a four blade herters out in the woods.  Scraped my sharpener over it a few times, it had never been sharpened.  A day or so later I shot it through a deer, 75 yards to the deer after the hit.  If I had more I would use them.  alot of things work, if you got the power to get the job done.  I my case it was a 64 lb. longbow.

[DaleinOhio]

Brett:  Aha!  Thanks for clearing that up.  I haven't tried the Grizzly yet.  It's on my "To-Buy" list, though...just to experiment with

[BigRonHuntAlot]

[HumbleHunter]

Howdy Steve,
Thanks for posting. In my statement I was referring to a story I heard from a guy who shot a MONSTER buck from a tree stand. He hit the spine, the BH curled, and had almost ZERO penetration. Didn't really even hurt the buck. (a guy had video of this deer for several years in a row after that).

With alittle imagination I can see hitting shoulders, spines and ribs. If a deer "ducks" a shot or "Spins" on a shot or does both, there's no telling what might actually happen for sure. Or, if I shoot a game and failed to see a tiny little twig, WhamO!

Example:
When I was shooting a..........(looks both ways).......compound a few years ago I had this happen. The bow had severe torque if you held the bow "properly" you know completely open fingers. Well during practice with that bow I always slightly gripped the bow and it actually made it a fairly straight shooter. (I discovered all this afterward this deer) When I shot this doe at less then 25 yards, perfect broadside, when I released it the arrow went left into the side of a tree, bounced off that into a pile of briers, came out of there and went right into the deers guts at an extreme angle. Almost a straight away angle. All that happened at less then 25 yards and the actual zig-zag was in less then a 5 yard space. I never recovered that doe. The whole deal upset me terribly. As a matter of fact that was the straw that broke the camels back and I went to Trad stuff since then and I've never looked back.

Point is, nobody is always EXACTLY sure whats going to happen Every time.

Again, This is just my worthless opinion and it is totally worthy of file 13 with no problems.

Hope I cleared my statement up alittle bit and have a great night all, HH

[Rico]

I take it for fact that the single bevel with the correct fletch will out penetrate  and leave a larger hole than the double. What you want to do with that data is your business but I don't think you can change the results any.

[bowdude]

Good call Orion.  This isn't even religion or politics!  SOME people really get upset when just what they think they know about simple things get turned upside down.
   Multiblade heads showed their poor performance early in Ashby's studies.  Even some 2 blade designs because of lack of durability.  

  But because of Ashby's work, whether due to age, sex or injury, a person can draw back on a mature elk here in the states with say a 43# bow and the right arrow and broadhead combination have the CONFIDENCE to know it can get the job done.  
  In ours and many quality departments there is a sign, "In God we trust, all others bring data."
  Dr Ashby at his own cost and at no profit for himself has brought the data, and our sport is the better for it.  We need more like him.

[Sant-Ravenhill]

Reading through this thread, I'm reminded of reading a copy of How to Win Friends and Influence people years ago. I still remember Carnegie writing that no one, "NO ONE", ever willingly changes their opinions on anything! Especially if it's someone else's idea.

I like what Ashby had to say; and loved that here was a guy that went and did all this on his own, with his own cash at a sacrifice of many other things.

[Mr.Chuck]

Dead is Dead!    Sharp and hit where you look!  As long as your looking in the right spot!  lol  

[HumbleHunter]

LOL nice head-banging ahahahaahahah

[Yolla Bolly]

Amen, Mr. Chuck, and the right spot is not between the antlers!

[Mark Baker]

Maybe I shoot at more deer than most, and I get to see a few elk get shot as well.   But I'm here to tell you, that dead might be dead, but finding them after they are sure can be easy or it can  be  hard.   Wounded, sometimes should be dead, but ain't....and I'll fess up to a few of these, unlike some on here.   I shoot heavy bows...well, heavier than most, and many of my shots, with razor sharp heads, don't go all the  way  through...heck they rarely blow through and stick in the ground!   I like to shoot primitive equipment mostly,  except I've been very  disappointed with stone so far....so I like to have the  best broadheads on my bow to  maximize penetration.   Two holes is always better than one, I find in my bloodtrailing.   Dr. Ashby's reports have really educated me since the very first one came out, and most of you did'nt even know who he was.   It may not  be  "science" to some of you...but it is hands down the BEST  reporting and analyzing done on the subject.  To ignore his findings is plain stupid, especially you light bow guys...IMO.   So read it,  learn something, and make you decisions based on what you have experienced yourselves...but if you ever  find that "should be dead but is wounded" or "should be dead quicker" happens to you, then you will have an idea of where you might have gone wrong.  

It is just plain dumb to "pooh-pooh" good experience.   Stupid is as Stupid does,  Mama always said.....-Forest Gump

[vermonster13]

I'll take all the help I can get and the Doc has done a lot of helping. The challenge I guess is to compare your recovery rates to his, the man hasn't lost but a handful of animals over a lot of decades(not saying you're old Doc, just have a lot more experience than most).

[Brian Krebs]

I have killed a lot of animals with my bows; and there is no doubt that dead is dead; and as Mr Chuck says you should hit what your looking at; and keep the broadheads sharp.

 I do not doubt that dead is dead. Thing is when you hit an animal and lose it. Then your brain is full of 'what ifs' and- if we can lower both the hit and lost rate; and increase the recovery rate- well I will give it a try.

 I agree that Ashbys studies are not exact science. I would want not only the exact same bow weight; and level of perfection of release- in order to [ahem] draw any scientific conclusions; and this would mean the use of a bow machine to do the shooting.

 Then too the use of consistant targets are essential. When you shoot an animal in one spot; a tiny bit to the left right; up or down can produce a different result.
 So; perhaps skin glued onto gelatin would be far more scientific than methods we judge broadheads upon now.

Ashbys studies are more than just broadhead types; it notes that an arrow shaft that is bigger than the broadhead ferrule can effect penetration due to drag.

Even the slickness of the broadhead and shaft are important to penetration.

There is a lot more to Ashbys studies than the notations about broadheads; and it is logical stuff he is putting forth.

 Yep its the off season again........  :rolleyes:

[SteveB]

To ignore his findings is plain stupid, especially you light bow guys...IMO.  

To take totally anecdotal evidence based on shooting large, tough African animals with forward kill zones and insist that those not using it on all NA big game are stupid is stupid and insulting as well. And that is exactly what many are doing.

While I sincerely appreciate the results from anyone's real world field experiance, the increasing tendency by some to nearly declare Ashby's reports a religion to be followed and accepted by all who should disregard their own experiences is going way over the top. Not all are doing this, but enough are that its hard to ignore.

Steve