Broadhead choice, dead is dead.

[bm22]

i want someone to make a broadhead that is a single bevel gizz when i hit bone but will change in mid air to a large 4 blade when i hit something in the guts.

that is something i would buy, till then i will keep trying new stuff.

[swp]

Dave2old,
Can you explain to me more better and more faster?    
I agree that dead is dead but on marginal hits dead isn't always dead (Remember the compound rage with overdraws in the late 80's? Seems that speed wasn't everything it was cracked up to be when a light arrow wouldn't penetrate jack.) I think this is what the Doc is pushing a better chance of killing vs. wounding on marginal hits. If nothing else you should at least be able to take away one thing from the article that improves your ability to make a poor shot work to your advantage and a quicker death for prey.

[TonyW]

"This is the official site of Grizzly & Wolverine Broadheads. The Grizzly Broadhead has enjoyed an excellent reputation among bowhunters who place a premium on strength, maximum penetration and absolute perfect flight characteristics.

The Grizzly's two bladed design and its unique single-bevelled edges provide extreme ease of sharpening. In addition, the single-bevelled edges cause the arrow to rotate on impact imparting less shaft drag, deeper penetration and additional cutting action. The Grizzly has been tested by an independent researcher against 32 different broadheads including other fixed-blade and new replaceable blade types. It was found to be the most durable and lethal broadhead for big game made today."

I hope Dr. Ed gets something for his endorsements. Eclipse and Grizzly sales owe him some compensation. It would be nice to have a few other experts to compete with Dr. Ed, though.
How soon before we see the "Ed Ashby signature broadhead" from one of these manufacturers?

[laddy]

For light weight outfits and short draws I have found the Hills and Grizzlies superior to anything else.  I was using the wide 160 Magnus for a few years until i blew  a chance on a large buck and blew was the right word.  I was shooting almost down wind with strong gusts.  My arrow took an unexpected side step that caused it to deflect off the deer's shoulder and stick in the ground in front of the deer.  I tried an other after the deer bolted that one did the same.  i had one Hill with me, that arrow flew perfect with the quartering tail wind,  I went back to Hills.

[Ray Hammond]

Bill,

You can't have it both ways. Your first post says his conclusions are based on anecdotal evidence and therefore are no better than any of our conclusions because they aren't scientific, then you say they are useful if you are going after bigger game in Africa.your two posts seem at conflict, to me, and do not make very much sense in either case.

If "dead is dead" then a dead deer is just a smaller dead kudu or eland....but those of you that think North American game isnt tough have not hunted big hogs. The shield on a 200 lb boar can be between an inch and two inches thick..think of those big truck retread pieces you see lying on the side of the interstate, strapped onto the side of a pig...thats what you have to go through, before you get to bone.

I think many of you mistakenly believe that Ed Ashby's work has no bearing on what we do because he tests on the biggest game. That's wrong..he tests on the biggest game because its easier to see results at the uppermost limits of what's available to shoot at, but bone contact is bone contact- how many of you have killed deer with broadheads embedded in the spine, shoulder knuckle, etc?

What if those guys had been shooting grizzlies instead? Would they be eating venison instead of having bad dreams about the one that got away?

[monterey]

I hope Dr. Ed gets something for his endorsements. Eclipse and Grizzly sales owe him some compensation. It would be nice to have a few other experts to compete with Dr. Ed, though.
How soon before we see the "Ed Ashby signature broadhead" from one of these manufacturers?/QUOTE]

I'd consider that to be bad faith speculation.  It's been over 25 years now and it hasn't happened yet.  According to Ashby it never will.

[Overspined]

Good studies with quite conclusive evidence shouldn't be overlooked too casually. It sounds crazy, but ones' own experience is not a study becuase typically there are very low study "populations" or experiences, non-reproduceable situations, etc. So, when it comes to penetration, Dr Ed's evidence is the best going at this time. If you are looking at blood trails or other "endpoints", his information is not helpful. People run into trouble when they begin to "trust" their own experiences vs evidence from large, well designed trials, and then usually something makes them realize why unexpected events happen when going against something proven.

[BUFF]

I don't know alot. But after considerable thought I can honestly say Dr Ashby is smarter than me...  

[SteveB]

the strongest moral stance is "Dead is dead, but dead more faster is way more better!"  

If true, should we even be using bows at all.
Would not the largest rifle one could shoot accurately be the strongest moral method?

[Rico]

You might not agree that  Asbys data is needed for your  situation  but what scientific studies  are you using to dispute his findings? Were can I find such readings?

[Tree man]

Monterey, I don't want to fight-I don't even want Dr. Ashby to be wrong. I do want everyone to THINK. Time at a cuttingboard can be enlightening but I wish to remind you that if time or distance are varied in the application of force then you are no longer comparing equal force. Plus, however similarly you might try to apply force at a cutting board with a knife, cutting behaviors may (DO) change due to velocity.(An arrow doesn't encounter the target in the same way as you do slowly cutting with your knife.)
Howard Hill and Dr. Ed Ashby both tout the superiority of 3/1 broadheads. Long skinny heads DO seem to fly very well and kill game if they hold up (don't bend or break) but neither HH or EA have PROVEN that they are better. A number of people who have spent time testing differing designs have rejected 3/1 ratio broadheads as showing no advantage and in most designs(-NOT the Grizzly) they suffer fragility issues. I myself have shot both high  and standard ratio designs on game and found no discernible difference in penetration.
I am going to try single bevels biased to coincide with fletching. I hope I love it.  I read Dr. Ashby's work. I appreciate it. He just fell on his face when he tried to introduce a bunch of physics into the discussion without applying it correctly (his mechanical advantage argument regarding broadhead design). I don't argue this out of disrespect fro Dr. Ashby- but out of a search for truth. I would happily shake Dr. ed's hand and sit down and discuss where hecame up short face to face. Maybe we could devise some test parameters that would reveal the truth about broadhead length/width ratios. 3/1 might even win-but until we eliminate the other variables and are testing only length to width ratios  I am not accepting something as true simply because some archers think it is true.

And all you STOS shooters -it IS a lovely head but do the math, it isn't 3/1. It isn't even close to 3/1.-It just seems "close" because it is a little more than 2/1.

[TonyW]

Tree man is right.

Start by reviewing your physics:

 http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/phys/Class/BBoard.html

I am skeptical that Dr. Ashby is unpaid and unbiased since he is used in advertisements from companies that want to divert money from competitors. Rico is also right. We only have Dr. Ashby's data. A scientific study needs UNBIASED data from researchers to back up or dispute the good doctor. Surely Dr. Ed would agree with this. Saying that no study exists that disputes the data also points out that no study CONFIRMS the data.


(PS If I want to know the best way to drill through a water buffalo hip bone, I would ask the vet at the National Zoo.)

[Chad Lewis]

I think if more people put the arrow in the vitals more often, what broadhead to use would be of little discussion. More animals are lost due to poor shots than anything.

Very few animals lost can be blamed on the BH but people being people need an outlet for failure, and the first to come up is the BH.

[SteveB]

Great point Chad.

Here is a thought that goes along with it. It is also quite possible far more animals are lost due to poor shot placement then are lost to poor penetration. I bet a high number of bad hits ot "shots that go wrong" still would be lost animals even with better penetration.

Not a lot of quick kill vitals behind the areas not being penetrated well on poor shots.

[carparcher]

If you shoot carbon or aluminum arrows and need a screw-in head, I haven't found anything that works better than Muzzy Phantoms.  I have used them the past two years and had nothing but success.  Also, Fred Eichler has killed every species of big game in North America w/ them, so if that doesn't show you that they work, then nothing will.

 

[Ray Hammond]

Because you are skeptical makes it so, Tony? I know Ed personally. He isn't getting paid to write his studies. I have not seen any ads using his information, but if someone quotes his studies...does that mean he is compensated?

I know for a fact that his studies were turned down by some pretty influential magazines due to worries about advertisers. Ed only buys the heads he uses...he does not take FREE heads from manufacturers.

People cite all kinds of sources of information to market products, government agencies, magazine articles, experts in their field, heck, they even cite their competitors on occasion. I'm not certain that is proof they are compensating the source. All they have to do is identify the source, not pay them.

Chad, you have a 50/50 chance when you make a bad shot- you are either going to make a bad soft tissue hit, or a bone hit. If your broadhead is sharp, its going to cut what it cuts. If your broadhead doesn't do well against bone, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO KILL THE ANIMAL.

I cannot count all the times I've heard people talk about hitting a game animal, like the "easy to kill" whitetail in the shoulder and the arrow 'bounced off' the deer.

Science is great...but when you are dealing with straight science its difficult to impossible to replicate shooting a broadhead arrow through a body- with fluids, soft, hard, and inbetween tissues, hair, skin, and bone EXCEPT by doing just that. I think that is what Ed has done. I don't think he is searching for anything but the truth in his endeavors....

I'm Ray Hammond, and I have not been compensated for this post.

[bayoulongbowman]

ATABOY...ray!!!!!!!!

[jrchambers]

i honestly cant beleive that someone started this post and some of the responses,  Dr Ed has spent countless hours and probably three times that in money just so he can help all the poor shmucks that are not maximizing their weapons lethality.
    I dont recall ever reading in his work where he told me i have to use what he said to.
    if he is getting compensated for his work, i bet it is by the best broadhead out there.  can anyone argue that a tanto tip is the toughest,  it was origonaly designed for armor piercing blades.  what about 3 to 1. any idiot knows that the less the angle the less the resistance but he has found the optimal medium as far as weight and toughness.
    Use whatever equipment you want but dont all defensive because he didnt say your setup was best, probably because it is far from it.  
    Personaly i will be using his advice when it comes to large animals.  and i am confident if i do it right shoulder punching a large bull moose will be no problem.
   YOU ALL SHOULD BE THANKING HIM.  after all you didnt have to pay a cent to read his stuff. kinda makes me sick

[swampbuck]

LOL I agree dead is dead and my hats off to anybody thats willing to do the research that Ashby has done for free.

I'll make anybody any kind of BH they want providing they pay enuff LOL I was thinkin a solid steel 2 blade 1" wide 3" lng 300 grainer with a single bevel from high carbon tool steel for carbon arrows if folks wanna pay top dollar why not let them....I persoanlly won't spend what it would take but hey I'm cheap LOL and there are plenty of good heads and I didn't pay myself for the ones I've already made

[bayoulongbowman]

LOL ...swampbuck ditto ROTF...