Author Topic: Dick's Bow Swap Build - Part 2 - Final Pix Added - Page 4  (Read 2049 times)

Offline SEMO_HUNTER

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Re: Dick's Bow Swap Build - Part 2 - Final Pix Added - Page 4
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2011, 01:15:00 AM »
That's a real nice job your doing on my bow there Dick. You do good work, if it wouldn't be a problem could you ship it out a bit early so I can use it when turkey season opens the end of April?

Thanks,
Herk .......aka SEMO     :goldtooth:

Yeah right......keep dreaming huh?   :laughing:
~Varitas Vos Liberabit~ John 8:32

Offline Dick in Seattle

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Re: Dick's Bow Swap Build - Part 2 - Final Pix Added - Page 4
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2011, 01:28:00 AM »
Well, Herk (and any other self declared Herks out there...)  If I can get enough work time in it should ship about the middle to end of next week.  I'm getting backed up a bit.  Jesse comes for his weekly session Wed. and I have a guy coming for shooting lessons on Thurs, and there's a shoot on Sat. but I still hope to have it finished on schedule.  I slip extra work time in whenever I can.  While this one was in the oven today, I got ahead on riser blanks...

 

This 18 blanks and/or sets that will get laminated and cut into blanks tomorrow. You're looking at three green heart, two pernambuco, two spalted sycamore, one bamboo, four very heavy red woods I don't know what are, will do some research tonight, one ebony, two pieces of bacote needing lamination and the two long pieces on top are red heart from which I'll get three risers.

Now I can just start a bow and pick a riser...
Dick in Seattle

"It ain't how well the bow you shoot shoots, it's how well you shoot the bow you shoot."

Offline ranger 3

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Re: Dick's Bow Swap Build - Part 2 - Final Pix Added - Page 4
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2011, 08:24:00 AM »
Nice work Dick, did Kelly send you my address if not let me know and I'll get it to you ASAP
Black widow PLX 48@28
Black widow PSRX 48@28

Offline 1oldbowguy

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Re: Dick's Bow Swap Build - Part 2 - Final Pix Added - Page 4
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2011, 08:25:00 AM »
I sure am enjoying the build, thanks for showing every step.  I see so much I had no clue about, it sure helps, again thanks!!!
Always say what you mean, that way people will know you mean what you say.

Offline hova

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Re: Dick's Bow Swap Build - Part 2 - Final Pix Added - Page 4
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2011, 10:53:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ranger 3:
Nice work Dick, did Kelly send you my address if not let me know and I'll get it to you ASAP
i dont know why kelly would send your address when dick is making MY bow for the swap...that is just weird....

lookin great dick. how many bows do youo build a year?


-hov
ain't got no gas in it...mmmhmmm...

Offline Dick in Seattle

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Re: Dick's Bow Swap Build - Part 2 - Final Pix Added - Page 4
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2011, 11:53:00 AM »
hov... and the rest of you Herks...

Some background, because I do keep getting asked...

I had worked on a couple of projects before I actually started to build ... a Hill blank and my first actual layup, which was a case of me doing a "ride along" with JD Berry to learn the basics.  That was in Oct. 2008.  I built my first solo bow in Jan. 2009.   Since then, I've built about a bow a month.   I've also helped out with quite a few bows with other folks who wanted to try bow building but needed the same sort of "ride along" first experience I was fortunate enough to get and a couple with guys who actually knew how but for whatever reason no longer had a shop and/or equipment.

Folks are always asking, "What do you do with them all?"  They wouldn't ask if the could see my bow room!  I am not a custom bow maker, do not take orders and do not generally sell my bows.  I've traded and swapped some, gifted some, and I keep enough downstairs to provide warmth if the oil man fails to deliver.  I have sold a few early ones I could no longer learn anything from and wasn't shooting any more and a couple of heavier ones I built because I needed the experience working at higher weights even though I couldn't shoot them.  My real favorites are bows I've done for folks with physical shooting problems similar to mine who really needed a good light bow.  

(Warning!  Sermon coming!)

I can't emphasize enough how important it is to shoot as light a bow as you can, not as heavy a bow as you can, if you want to enjoy archery into your old age.  Shooting the heavies is great fun, but if you shoot a heavy bow for years because "someday" you might get an elk or moose tag, you're mortgaging your archery future.   Shoot a moderate weight as a regular thing and build up before a big hunt.  There's a lot of years between the 60 and 80 and I see and talk with too many guys who are having to quit in their 60's due to shoulder and joint damage.
Dick in Seattle

"It ain't how well the bow you shoot shoots, it's how well you shoot the bow you shoot."

Offline don s

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Re: Dick's Bow Swap Build - Part 2 - Final Pix Added - Page 4
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2011, 01:37:00 PM »
dick, would you adopt me? love your hill bows.
                                        don

Offline tradbower

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Re: Dick's Bow Swap Build - Part 2 - Final Pix Added - Page 4
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2011, 05:23:00 PM »
Dick
   Great job on this bow, I can only hope it lands on my door step.
"Never to old to learn something new"

Offline Dick in Seattle

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Re: Dick's Bow Swap Build - Part 2 - Final Pix Added - Page 4
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2011, 10:35:00 PM »
New Installment Jan. 25, 2011 - Grinding for Width and Riser Shape


The comments coming in are very enthusiastic about the details, of which I hadn't intended to show so many. However, since I made it a separate thread, it looks like I might as well give in and make this more of a build along.

Here is the next stage of grinding, establishing the width of the bow and grinding the "overpass" off of the riser blank to arrive a regular rear straight riser... much later, it will be come a dished riser.
 

 
 

With the bow snot ground off, I am now feeding the riser through the drum sander to arrive at as close to perfectly parallel sides as possible and to get it down to the thickness I want. I stopped at 1.20". I'm happy at 1.10 to 1.20. Stopping here means that, as long as I keep the riser sides flat, I can run it through some more to narrow the shoulders and get a little weight adjustment later if I need to drop a bit.
 
 
 

Some of you have probably been wondering what I'm going to do with that overpass riser. Well, here you see it being done. Most Hill bows use a 4" flat riser section. I use 4 3/4" to 5". Two reasons... first, I like to be sure I have enough for big hands and second, I tend to like long risers. This one is 17 1/2". Long risers mean a shorter working limb, which translates to a hair more speed.

Using a center finding ruler, I established the center of the riser, then slipped the ruler down until it set a line 4 3/4" long between the edges of the overpass. Then it was just a matter of running the blank through the drum sander and sanding the top of the overpass down to that line.
 
 

If you look real close, you can see just the tiniest bit of the pencil line left here. This is now a standard riser.
 
 

Because I was using a laminated riser, when I ground for trueness and width, I consistently favored one side. Here you see the result. I'll cut the shelf into the wider side, thus preserving the benefit of extra strength from the laminated riser. Of course, the fact that by laminating I was able to make use of a less expensive and more available piece of myrtle that would not otherwise be usable for a riser didn't hurt.
 
  

Big thrill time... I peeled off the lay up tape and can now begin to see what the bow will end up looking like.
 
 

Look at the riser section here, then slide back up and look at it in one of the pix before I trimmed it down. Why go to this trouble? In the lay up process, it's very much easier to get good clamp placement on the gentle curves of the overpass than on the typical sharper "ski slope" curves of the usual Hill style risers. This means better bonding, less chance of bubbles and smoother joins on the fades.
 

There should be another installment posted tonight, but not till I have another cup of coffee and my evening pipe...

Dick
Dick in Seattle

"It ain't how well the bow you shoot shoots, it's how well you shoot the bow you shoot."

Offline Dick in Seattle

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Re: Dick's Bow Swap Build - Part 2 - Final Pix Added - Page 4
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2011, 12:46:00 AM »
Second New Installment - Jan. 25, 2011

Drafting the Bow

The next step, for me, is drafting my longbow shape onto the bow blank. Most bowyers use a template for this. I like to draft it in place. I usually end up making a few small decisions about the positioning of the riser, whether to maybe try a shorter lower limb right from the start (I usually don't) and most especially about what I want the balance of the bow to be in the hand and in relation to the positioning of the shelf. So, here we go...
 
  

First step is to tape the back with a light colored masking tape. The width is now 1.20", if you recall. Whatever tape you find will be too wide. I happened to find a role of very light 2" (or nearest metric equivalent). I tape it on following one edge, then fold over gently.
 
  

A piece of 120 sandpaper rubbed on the folded edge will let you peel the excess tape right off, leaving you with a perfectly taped blank.
 
 

Using an adjustable square, I establish the dead middle of the blank and run a center line end to end in both directions. While I do the best I can to establish absolute parallel, it seldom truly is. The riser section is often the slightest bit wider, due to its greater resistance in the sander, but this doesn't matter at this point. This blank came out really well and center was nearly perfect the whole length.

Once the center line is established, I make marks at 5/16" on either side at the ends. This would be a wider tip than many would like, but it leaves me some room to play. It'll end up a bit narrower in most cases, but I like to start with the tip a bit stiff, especially if I'm not using tip wedges. The extra width lets me do a little fine tillering at the ends.
 

 

I pay considerable attention to the balance of the bow. I have at this point established the dead center of the riser... the vertical line, and the dead center of the bow... the short mark to the right. Here I am double checking the actual physical balance point. As you can see, it fell very closely in between the other two points. It doesn't always, and I may adjust a limb length, which sometimes establishes which will be the lower limb, but I try to avoid that until later.

The point of this is that for a real longbow you will be shooting with a low wrist grip. I want the bow to balance, or have a pivot point, on the ball of your hand, just under and behind the thumb. I believe this makes arrow tuning and point on shooting easier. I've drawn in an imaginary shelf line, which might migrate to the other end at a later point, but everything has worked out very well on this bow, and if you imagine gripping it, you will see that the pressure point of a low wrist grip is going to be just about right either way. I'm very pleased about how things are shaping up.
 
 

With these points established, I can draft the riser. I could wish my drawing/lettering were better, but... You can see a line with an "R" above it... the center of the riser. Just below it is a line with a "B"... the balance point. Below that an "M", the measured middle of the bow.
 
Moving out, you see two short lines.  These mark the ends of the flat section of the riser.   One inch out from these lines are two more full width lines. These mark where I want the outside of the shoulders to be.

I've drawn lengthwise lines 3/16" in from the edges, the length of the flat section of the riser, again using the adjustable square. These mark the furthest in that I want to shape the riser's narrowing. On a shelved bow, the grinding into these lines will be very gentle and mostly on the edges. The side thinning of the riser will be minimal, leaving "meat" to cut the shelf into. On a no-shelf bow, I'll grind in to almost as thin as the space between the lines.

Two cautions, don't try view this drawing as proportional. There was some slant to the photo; and ignore the two diagonal lines at the edges. Those are pencil slips!
 

 

Next comes establishing the limb edges. Easy as pie... Clamp a straight edge to the limb.. just OUTSIDE of the end mark ... and slanting down to the widest point of the shoulder. Obviously, repeat for all four limb edges.

 
 
 
 
This pretty well shows you the bow plan.
 
Tomorrow, if I find the time what with working with Jesse on his bow, I'll grind the sides of the limbs and begin tillering. I won't start to shape the riser till I have established tiller and basic first draw weight. That will leave me with plenty of flat surface to mount on the top of the tillering stick.

So, all you hopeful Herkimer Q. Wheezby’s out there... Are you still liking it?

Dick
Dick in Seattle

"It ain't how well the bow you shoot shoots, it's how well you shoot the bow you shoot."

Offline AKmud

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Re: Dick's Bow Swap Build - Part 2 - Final Pix Added - Page 4
« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2011, 01:28:00 AM »
Looking great Dick!  Do you bandsaw any of the material off (near the tips) or just sand it all off?

Offline Dick in Seattle

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Re: Dick's Bow Swap Build - Part 2 - Final Pix Added - Page 4
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2011, 03:52:00 AM »
Basic Rule of my shop:  "No bandsaw blade shall ever touch glass!"   Just cutting out the shelf/sight window will do in a blade.   I do the limbs with the sander and cut in the shelf, if any, with top quality wood rasps and files.  

The more I return to no shelf shooting, as with Bamboozle, the more the thought of shelves reminds me of a quote from H.F.S. Morgan, developer of the British Morgan sports car.  The early versions (circa 1910 - 1920) were extremely basic, performance being the only consideration.  Someone remarked, "But, Mr. Morgan, it has no doors!"   His classic reply, "Doors!   Whatever would you want doors for?!"  

A lot of the appeal of the Hill style bow is its basic simplicity.  Why not go all the way and get rid of that sophisticated complication, the shelf?    :)   (Trouble is, I think I'm serious!)
Dick in Seattle

"It ain't how well the bow you shoot shoots, it's how well you shoot the bow you shoot."

Offline KellyG

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Re: Dick's Bow Swap Build - Part 2 - Final Pix Added - Page 4
« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2011, 04:40:00 AM »
LOL Dick it is looking good, evern better with all the fine details that is sometimes left out.
I also think that ******** is on edge right know waiteing to see the end bow.
Happy Building,
Kelly

Offline SEMO_HUNTER

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Re: Dick's Bow Swap Build - Part 2 - Final Pix Added - Page 4
« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2011, 08:01:00 AM »
It's looking better all the time Dick!
Kinda like opening up a Christmas present but taking a week to do it. It's the anticipation of what it will look like in the end that's the thrill for me.
Of course the finished product is what we are after, but it's the process of getting there that I enjoy so much.
~Varitas Vos Liberabit~ John 8:32

Offline broketooth

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Re: Dick's Bow Swap Build - Part 2 - Final Pix Added - Page 4
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2011, 08:08:00 AM »
lookin good dick. your shop is impecibly clean , i must say. the rule in my shop is mess=progress.keep the pics coming. i cant wait to see it finished. ruddy
" you have done well to keep your hair when so many are after it"

Offline jsweka

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Re: Dick's Bow Swap Build - Part 2 - Final Pix Added - Page 4
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2011, 08:14:00 PM »
You're going to make someone really happy Dick!
>>>---->TGMM<----<<<<

Offline Dick in Seattle

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Re: Dick's Bow Swap Build - Part 2 - Final Pix Added - Page 4
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2011, 08:29:00 PM »
Thanks, guys...  got good work in today and two more updates should get posted tonight.  They'll be the last till the pix of the finished bow.  All that's left now is a couple of days of mouse and hand sanding and putting the finish on.  Gotta say, I love that new sander!  Every bit of work on this bow has been done on it, never turned the big guy on!

Dick
Dick in Seattle

"It ain't how well the bow you shoot shoots, it's how well you shoot the bow you shoot."

Offline hova

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Re: Dick's Bow Swap Build - Part 2 - Final Pix Added - Page 4
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2011, 08:37:00 PM »
yup , i still love my bow.

really though , looks just awesome.  i cant believe you do a bow a month , and dont sell them. my wife would kill me...

then again mine dont look nearly as beautiful as yours do...


-h.q. whizby
ain't got no gas in it...mmmhmmm...

Offline scottm

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Re: Dick's Bow Swap Build - Part 2 - Final Pix Added - Page 4
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2011, 08:47:00 PM »
Nice Job Dick.Thanks so much for sharing the whole process.I feel ive learned a lot.someone is going to be so suprised!

Offline Dick in Seattle

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Re: Dick's Bow Swap Build - Part 2 - Final Pix Added - Page 4
« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2011, 01:19:00 AM »
Jan. 26 - Update 1 - Grinding the Limbs
 
I didn't expect to get a lot done today as my "student", Jesse, was coming over to work on the bow he's building for his dad. However, I made excellent progress in the morning, then Jesse left at 3:00 and I got a lot more done.

We left off last night with the bow shape drafted on the blank. This morning I ground the limb shapes in and tested it for draw...
 
 
  

Here I'm grinding the edge of a limb, working to get down to the outside edge of the pencil line. I'm pushing the work toward the rotation of the belt, not pressing terribly hard, but letting the belt do the work.

 

As I work, the belt is pushing the tape up. To the right, where I've ground a fair amount away, you can see that the pushed up tape is starting to obscure the line.
 
 

At this point, I cannot safely try to work closer to the line, so I stop and use the 120 sandpaper to sand off the tape edge, just as I did when I put the tape on the blank.
 
 

Here is the same edge with the pushed up tape sanded off. Now I can work closer, and more carefully, to the outside of the pencil line. I'll go slower and be more careful not to have irregularities such as show here.
 
 

Once I've done all four limbs to the outside of the line it's time to smooth out the sides, which, no matter how much care is used will still have some irregularity due to the fact that I'm sanding a long essentially flat surface with the round sander edge. However, that round edge sands off the mass much faster than the flat side would. Now I can go to the flat side and sand with long smooth motions, carefully sanding off the pencil line.
 
  

Too far back to show well, but here is the rough finished bow shape, except for the riser, which is still untouched.
 
  

At this point I need to see what weight I ended up with. I don't want to cut nocks in yet because if my weight is too light and I have to shorten the limbs by cutting off below the nocks I'm likely to end up having to shorten it too much and end up way over weight.

You're looking at two neat tricks here that enable me to string and weigh test a bow with no nocks. The first thing you need is a tillering string with two really heavy, large leather pockets. These are connected by a heavy tillering string permanently fastened to one end and tied at the other with a bowyers knot. With the bowyer's knot you can make the string any length you need. However, the knot pulls tight with bracing and is a bear to get out afterwards!

The second thing is a way to brace the bow so that you can get the end of the limb into the pocket. If you study the pic you will see that the end of the far limb is braced against a peg inserted into one of the dog holes in my workbench. The riser is counter braced against another peg. I stand in front of the near limb and push it forward until I can slip the pocket on. Voila! A strung bow than can be tested before I decide where to put nocks.

The first test is just to see if it's going to hang together. I don my heavy gloves and a bicycle helmet and go out in the driveway and start flexing it until I reach well beyond my normal full draw. If all feels good, I can then proceed to actually weight test it on a scale. Up to this point, everything about this bow has turned out well. However, Mr. Murphy is always with us. I came in light.

The initial test draw showed the minimum weight Herkimer wanted. Since the bow is till rough, I know that I will lose at least five pounds in the finishing. If a bow comes in heavy, I know I can knock weight off by further narrowing the shoulders on the drum sander, doing more edge grinding on the limbs, or even trapping the lower 2/3 of the limbs. ("Trapping" means to grind the limb side in at about 20 degree angle toward the belly. It's a touchy operation but effective.) However, as neat as all these tricks are, they don't help if you're light! You're going to have to shorten the bow. The question is, by how much?

Herkimer gave me a narrow range to work in, and wanted a full length bow. This is the beauty of my special tillering string. I use a 1 1/4
 tip on the upper limb and a 1" tip on the lower. This gives tips long enough to effectively and easily engage a stringer. The bow blank was just over 70" long. If I had cut nocks in to make full length 68" bow and then needed to shorten it, I would have had to cut off a total of 2 1/4". This could raise the weight by a bit more than ten pounds, plus leaving you with at best a 65" or 66" bow. Not having nocks to contend with, I cut 1/2" off the upper and 3/4" off the lower. The difference was a gesture toward insuring that the lower limb would be a bit stiffer than the upper. I then went ahead and put the nocks in... Nothing like confidence!
 
 

Here I'm cutting in the nocks, using this nifty little nock cutting jig. They don't necessarily come out perfectly matched, but close enough that a tiny bit of free hand filing makes them so.

 With this done, I strung the bow with a real 65" string and weight tested it again. I ended up with a gain of seven pounds, which put me two pounds over Herkimer's range. I could have used a bit more, but I still had a full length bow. By being careful and doing a minimum of heavy mouse and hand sanding, I could stay within the usual five pound loss for finishing, which would put me solidly in the middle of Herk's desired range.

The disadvantage is that to do this, I would be removing a minimum of material and also minimizing the curved limb edges I like to do. This will make the bow lean a bit more toward "American Flatbow" rather than pure Hill style. Ah, well... This is why I'm not a professional bowyer!
Dick in Seattle

"It ain't how well the bow you shoot shoots, it's how well you shoot the bow you shoot."

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