Critique needed (full draw pic!)

[briarjumper12]

This is my 5th bow.  Hickory, 1.5 wide at widest, 66 ntn, 40lb @ 28 in.  Built for my Dad who has some shoulder issues.  I put it on a form and reflexed the outer limbs while heat treating the belly (which turned out nice I think).  It draws very smooth with no stack and flings an arrow pretty good for such light weight.  Haven't chrono'd it yet, hope to later in the week.
I would like some comments from the knowledgable folks here to help me refine this bow so that it will be one that Dad will be proud of.  
Have I rounded the edges of the limbs enough?  
Do the tips need to be reduced more above the string groove?
The tips are stiff and non working, do they need to be narrow more or maybe rounded more?
Any comments are welcome and don't worry about offending my craftmanship because I am putting this on here to try to learn how to do this better.  My goal is to be a master and this is my only outlet for constructive criticsm... so let's have it.

Here's the pics
Unstring (it has been sanded and shot it but not stained or anything)
 

Strung
 

Full Draw
 

handle
 

tip
 

Thanks for looking folks,
John

[PEARL DRUMS]

It looks as if your outer limbs need to bend much more to me. If you look at your full draw pic you can see it has a definite hing just before mid limb. I like the tips and handle, very good looking.

[John Scifres]

It looks to me like roughly 10" of the limb length is taking all the load.  Unless I am missing something about this design, I would get the rest of the limb moving.

[Art B]

Great design! And I bet it is quick. Don't know if that design will stand up to hickory but a sure candidate for Osage IMO. If heat treated well then I expect it just may at that weight. Nice work........Art

[briarjumper12]

Art
Thanks for the comments Art.  I kept the weight low not only for Dad but safety and experimentation.
Pearl,
I was thinking that was a hinge too.  But I think it is a product of induced reflex.  And  when analyzed on the tiller tree it is actually working all the way down to the fades and the reflex is working pretty good until the last 5 or 6 inches, but very possibly not a enough right the bend occurs. I hadn't ever done any reflex like this and when tillering I didn't know how much take out in the reflex.  Maybe next time I'll take more out in the reflexed area and make it more flimsy. On the next one maybe I will the reflex more arc of circle ish and not have such an abrupt bend all at once.
John,
Could you expand on what you know about this design a little bit. I am seeking as much knowledge as I can get my mind wrapped around.  When I built the form for this I just eyeballed what looked good and went with it.  

Is there any standards on how much reflex per limb length?  Where to start the reflex compared to limb length, ect.?

Thanks for the discussion gentleman, it is very much appreciated from an isolated newb in KY.
John

[SEMO_HUNTER]

I love the unstrung profile with the tad bit of reflex in the last 1/3 of the limbs. I would get a little more flex between the fade and the last 1/3 of the limbs myself, it looks a bit flat there.
Then again, if you get too much flex in that area you might lose the reflex you put into it? Or end up way under your target weight. You might think about narrowing the last 10" or so rather than take anymore meat off the belly? That should add some more quickness to the tips, and even out the tiller a bit more without getting the limbs too thin? Just a suggestion, but I'm not near as experienced at giving advice as John or Art is. Just merely a fledling bowyer and an observer.

Only reason why I would think you should do anything at all to it is the flatness of that area of the limbs seems like it would create quite a bit of hand shock.
Overall nice looking selfbow, good work.

[macbow]

I can't tell how wide the tips are but I think there is room to reduce the mass and not effect the pull weight.
You might "trap" the belly side of the last 5 or 6 inches almost like a triangle shape. You'd still have plenty of strength and by reducing weight pick up some speed and help with any hand shock.

Nice work overall. If he shoots it a lot maybe you could report back on how this design held up.
Ron

[ChristopherO]

Looking at the unstrung piture and then the strung picture the bend strung compared to the induced reflex is not in the same place.  The induced reflex is out further on the limb.  So when you string it up the induced reflex hardly shows but the limb closer to the fade really shows a bend.  This tells me that you've created a thinner limb at that point.  
Hickory is hardy and 40# at that length isn't asking a great deal of the wood so if it shoots then your Dad will enjoy it.  But, for a heavier pulling bow you will need to be more careful where you thin the limb for proper tiller.

[George Tsoukalas]

I'd get the near handle wood moving a bit more and about the last foot to the nocks moving more. jawge

[John Scifres]

John,

I have never seen a design like this before but if Art says "great design", I'd listen to him.  Is this something you came up with or did you see it somewhere?  Maybe I am missing some details.  What do you think about it?

I reflex slowly from handle to tip in an accelerating arc.  I use osage almost exclusively though.  Good hickory can be as as good as average osage though.  Here's my caul.

 

I end up with a bit of set induced deflex in the inner third and reflexed tips the outer 6".  Like this one.

 

My tips are narrowed to 1/2" at 6" from the tip to 3/8" at the nocks and then down to points.  they are left about 1/2" thick.  This is to minimize mass and keep my unstrung profile showing the tips with less than 1" of string follow.  It never works out perfect but that's my goal.

Bottom line is you're making bows and apparently having fun.  I am sure this bow will be a great one for your Dad.  Good job!

[briarjumper12]

Originally posted by ChristopherO:
Looking at the unstrung piture and then the strung picture the bend strung compared to the induced reflex is not in the same place.  The induced reflex is out further on the limb.  So when you string it up the induced reflex hardly shows but the limb closer to the fade really shows a bend.  This tells me that you've created a thinner limb at that point.  
Hickory is hardy and 40# at that length isn't asking a great deal of the wood so if it shoots then your Dad will enjoy it.  But, for a heavier pulling bow you will need to be more careful where you thin the limb for proper tiller.

That did happen Chris.  I'll have to figure out how to keep that from happening on the next.

Jawge,
I will work on that.  Especially the flat spots on the outer third.  I think I'll use the suggestion of narrowing more.  I got room to narrow I think.

John,
I ain't gonna say I came up with myself.  I had this piece of wood that had a lot of checks and cracks in it.  It even had some lamaner separation.  I worked it down so that all of that was gone or minimized hoping to get a bow for my 9 yr old son.  I had a little more left than expected and decided on a low weight bow for Dad.  Someone posted a link to St. Louis' heat treating video and I figured this would be a good piece to experiment on so I followed his method.  On the form I used I just eyeballed the reflex on one side using the band saw and belt sander then transferred the arc to other.  I guess though for all intents and purposes it is a John Young original. I really just wanted to see if I could bend the wood without it breaking.  

[briarjumper12]

John,
BTW, that is an awesome looking bow and that was the profile i was shooting for.  The accelerating arc is where I missed it.  That's the reason for the hinge.  Too much reflex too quick in the arc.  
I hope it holds up for Dad.  I've shot it a few hundred times and I got him down yesterday and he put a quite few shots through it.  Then I asked him how he liked and he said it was the first one I'd built that he could shoot without hurting his shoulder too bad.  I said "good, then it's yours".  He complains all the time about getting old LOL, I'm hoping to get him more involved with this one.
John Y

[PEARL DRUMS]

Thats all that matters John, your dad and you enjoying time together. The finished product doesnt really matter in the end!

[John Scifres]

I got a bow in a White Elephant gift exchange a few years back that had some ummm, issues, shall we say.  It was my first real experiment in heat treating.  It turned out OK.  Here it is:  Fixit  

Experimenting is fun.  Looks like you had a decent result.  I'd narrow those tips so that they are kind of like the Holmegard bow which essentially does not bend in the last half.  the outer limbs are levers kind of like siyahs on asiatic bows.  Hope your dad likes it  

Man looking of that picture of me in shorts makes me yearn for summer.  It's been a long winter already and we're just in early Feb.  But I digress.

[Art B]

It would help to see an unstrung front profile pic.. This particular profile directly influences the drawn/braced profile.  

This design has some good features IMO. Short limb bending radius for best speed, stiff/reflexed outer half to prevent limb deformation. That's important I think once your limbs become so long.

Like I mentioned eariler, if this were an Osage bow, I believe this design would work great because of it's length. Osage can handle it with that length riser, short limb bending radius and longer stiffer outer limbs.

Just a little more bending out of the fades (using the correct limb design) on your next hickory of this design should ensure the desires results you're looking for I think..........Art

[briarjumper12]

I'll try to get a front profile pic posted up tomorrow.  This evening I used the scraper and took some more wood off the outer 1/3.  It didn't change the look at full draw one bit I guess it had to reduce the mass some.  I went ahead and put a coat stain it also.

I am really interested to see what you guys think about the design when you see the front profile.

Art,
I totally agree on the bending more out of the fades.  I really like the way this bow shoots so I believe I will experiment more with design and use John's accelerating arc trick on next one. So I will incorpate that into the tillering of the next one.  I think the next one will be wider also.  As soon as I finish this one out I got another stave ready to start on.

Along with the front profile pic tomorrow I will try to get over to the next county's bowshop and chrono it with some 615 grain hard maple arrows I planed out myself.  I ordered me the fancy dowel maker from Lee Valley today so I am all excited about getting it.

[ber643]

LOL- I saw the initial post just after it was made  - my thoughts were exactly (almost word for word, including liking the handle and tips) as Pearl Drums. I almost posted it, as there was no reply yet and I was concerned the "hinges" were going to ruin the poster's efforts. Then I decided, "No, I haven't been doing much bow work lately and I better just keep my mouth shet-up." When I came back to read the thread this evening and saw PD's post, and then where John (more cautiously) touched on it the same way, I thought, "Yeah, I was right on!"

Then my hero, Art Blew me right out of the water and I thought, "What the ....?"    

[briarjumper12]

Thanks for the kinds words and encouragement Bernie.  

In regards to you keeping your mouth shet-up...I have found that strategy works great when dealing with my.....uh oh she's watching! LOL

[ber643]

LOL - been there, done that too!  

Funniest part was that for a minute or two there I thought poor ol' Art had finally gone over the bend with "Bowyer's Mind Warp" - I almost cried -  

[briarjumper12]

Got the front profile pic.  I measured the limb width right below the string grooves with a borrowed set of calipers.  One measured 0.600 inches and the other 0.599.  So I got them very close to each other just by eyeballing with a measuring tape.  But I am guessing I could narrow even more and round more as I go.  Any suggestions?
Won't be able to make it to the chrono today but maybe later in the week.