Be honest....it helps....

[Art B]

It's all about enjoying the journey Pearl Drums.  Good luck on yours........Art

[John Scifres]

I kinda look at it a little different.  I make them that way because I believe the limb starts at the fulcrum.  In that light, the limbs are about the same length.  

Torges' point, I think, was that for greater balance, you start at the balance point.  Now different grips definitely influence this and it is really easier to tiller equal limb bows so the argument has merit.  But I have found that Dean's theories hold true in my practice.  Since I have relied on the fulcrum principle, my bows are smoother shooting, and fall into tiller more easily.  Intuitively, it just matches my brain better.  

That being said, on bows over 62" I doubt it really makes a bit of difference and I have had equal success with both styles.  The shorter the bow, though, the more critical it becomes.

The way I see it, ideally, we would have the center of our grip pressure at the center of the bow.  We would have the arrow launch from the center of the bow.  As a correlation, we would have our nock point and the center of our string-hand pressure in the center of the string.  (Think about string loops on compound bow strings.  Don't they straddle the nock point?)  Now since not all that stuff can't happen exactly, we have to compromise.  

I think that's also why I have grown to love short, narrow osage bows that bend in the handle.  The simplest design to make is probably the best for me. I guess the K.I.S.S. principle applies here too.

[Roy from Pa]

What John said.

[PEARL DRUMS]

This my first shorter bottom limb bow and I can  already see it is going to balance in my hand better. I shoot straight-bulbous handles with a slighty "broke" wrist, most of the pressure is on the true center of the bow, not the middle of the grip as a centered handle would be. I have noticed on the my other bows with equal limbs that when I draw my bottom limb wants to pull back first. Im very curious to see how this one feels in my hand, we shall see VERY shortly! If I odnt care for it, I will build another! Good info guys, thanks

[Roy from Pa]

I have always made my bows like Torges does and they do balance very nicely in the hand. But one of these days I intend to make a bow with equal length limbs to see how that goes.

I guess Art isn't out of bed yet, or he's sitten in the kitchen in his jammies eating corn flakes cereal:)

[Art B]

(Gagging here)

Who in there right mind would eat horse feed for breakfast Boy. If you were worth your salt you'd be having deer steak and eggs for breakfast too:  :D  

Hey old man, make that same length limb bow with a stronger "upper" limb as Mr Dean advocates and see how that works out for you     .......Art

[PEARL DRUMS]

I was on Roys team, but you got me with the horse feed thing Art! I prefer steak and eggs myself!

[Roy from Pa]

I never seen Mr. Dean advocate a stronger upper limb. And why make a stronger upper limb and then take wood off it to get a positive tiller? But if he did advocate the stronger upper limb, then I guess the lower limb being shorter and thus stronger would balance it out?  

Now I'd like to see pictures of some of your Bows Art. Belly, back, side, handle, unbraced, braced, and full draw. Fugger I might learn something from that Ole Boy:)

[Art B]

Originally posted by Roy from Pa:
I never seen Mr. Dean advocate a stronger upper limb. And why make a stronger upper limb and then take wood off it to get a positive tiller? But if he did advocate the stronger upper limb, then I guess the lower limb being shorter and thus stronger would balance it out?    

Now I'd like to see pictures of some of your Bows Art. Belly, back, side, handle, unbraced, braced, and full draw. Fugger I might learn something from that Ole Boy:)

  Here's an excerpt Roy from Dean's article "Tillering the Organic Bow"

"No," you may reply. "It is simpler to make same-limb bows and let the process help you decide which limb should be which." Such a sentiment ignores the distinction between simple and easy. It can be easier to make a same-limb bow, but only if you ignore the sliding fulcrum, if you already have your mind made up that you're upper limb should be the weaker one, if you don't mind keeping a relay of staves moving through the hotbox, one waiting to take the place of its failed predecessor, or if you suffer from BADD bad, unable to shoot a new bow long enough to reveal its flaws because there's another one that needs built and shot. Or if you flip the bow exactly the opposite from what you were told, making the slightly stiffer limb the upper one.


Sur air a demanding ol' cuss ain't you! Got no other need or desire to be anything other than helpful to you fellows     .......Art

[PEARL DRUMS]

So Dean does like a shorter bottom limb bow. Mine is now tillered in a few pounds heavy and I have shot it 30-40 times now. It shoots very hard and feels balanced to me. I have zero complaints. Just pray it stays together long enough to get some skins and finish on it! I will get some fresh "discussion" pics up tomorrow afternoon.

[John Scifres]

I have found that sometimes a fulcrum tillering job results in a slightly "negative" tiller at brace.  Does that mean it's unbalanced?  I think why I like the fulcrum concept is that it meshes with my intuition about making bows.  It just seems to fit.  I never had the brain power to resolve my internal conflict with measuring tiller at brace and calculating where the handle should be and where the string hand should be...

With this method, you pull at the center of the string and rest your handle on the fulcrum.  All other things are irrelevant to me.

[Art B]

We all do things a little different John but we seem to make it work for ourselves. But there in lies the problem. We need a standard to where we can convey to others how and why things work the way they do. Dean's article, at least to me , just mudded the waters.

The vast majority of us use a positive tiller, very few a slightly stiffer upper limb I've noticed. I understand very well why both are needed. But when folks ask about limb length, arrow passes and grips we need a simple explaination that ALL can undestand. I'm in no way bashing Dean, love the old man to death, just wish he could write to where I don't how to read his articles fortenth times to get the meaning. I'm simple minded you know......Art

[Roy from Pa]

I'm simple minded you know......Art  

Well there it is Sports Fans:) LMAO

Ok, let us take this one more step down the ladder. Dean advocates placing the tillering tree pull rope to the right of the handle, more in line where our hand will be when pulling the bow. I do also. John, I see you pull the bow from the center of the handle on the tree.

What's ya got to say about that Ole Timer from WV? LOL

Night, going to bed... I tired.. Ole Timer from Pa.

[Art B]

"Dean advocates placing the tillering tree pull rope to the right of the handle, more in line where our hand will be when pulling the bow."

You only shoot your bows with one hand Roy? What you use the other one for?  Art

[PEARL DRUMS]

I watched one of Deans DVD's last night, (thanks Roybert!) I see it like this, there is no one right way to build a bow as long as you tiller it correctly with the pattern you choose. If you build a shorter bottom limb bow then tiller accordingly. If you build and even length limbed bow, then tiller it accordingly. Stim Wilcox said a vast majority of his experinece is with same length limb bows, BUT he thinks a shorter bottom limb will lessen hand shock most times? He even suggested moving the handle up and down the bow to find the best spot for it. I guess it boils down to following tiller rules for the specific style you choose. I cant lie, if this bow holds up I doubt I will build very many equal length bows anymore. I like the way it feels in my hand as I draw. And it shoots as good as my equal length counterparts. Roy and Art, I got ahold of the UFC and they agreed to a non-sanctioned "Ol' Farts" bout sometime in late May and be Free per View! Start gettin' in shape guys! HAHAHAHAHAHA!

[Roy from Pa]

LOL Pearly..

Morning Art..

52 degrees yesterday, 3 inches of snow today and more on the way. Think I'll head out to the bow shop and play bowyer:)

[Art B]

Some of what you say about the shorter lower limbed bows producing less hand shock has merit Pearly. But have you considered the why? Art

[Art B]

Morning Roy    !  Art

[PEARL DRUMS]

Cant lie Art, the "why" doesnt concern me. Its the the feel and performance that matters to me.

[PEARL DRUMS]

Let me rephrase that, it sounded rude. The "why" interestes me, but its the way my mind and hands work.