Most preferred take-down system for longbows?

[Beanbag]

Back again, Any info on what resins and glass they are using?? Different cloth weights or matting.Or a combination of both? How much thickness is required. Could send it out possibly for a price but would rather do myself.Thks JG

[Sixby]

Kirk the problem with a three piece is that it takes away from the classic look of a slim longbow. Other than that I agree. i would not use a bow bolt on a bet. I have seen a couple of failures and one is too many.
The composit pocket is the way to go but what a stinking mess to build!!! They are super strong and you cannot tell the bow is a two piece.
My personal reccomendation is to do this system though with a phenolic riser. At the minimum with a phenolic I beam. If you use a bow bolt definately go with phenolic.
I think what we are really missing out on here is a design that will mount the limbs on a slimline riser and look just like a regular longbow. I am sure it is possible and when I figure it out I will let you all know.
God Bless you all and good luck Lee.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Ya i suppose you are right Steve....

but i still can't get myself to cut a perfectly good bow in half trying this pocket rocket thing out...

It sure wouldn't take much to ruin a perfectly good bow......

i guess i gotta work on this traditional way of thinking more....  btw... if using glass is a crutch, what do you call this Traditional looking two piece thing anyway?   a walker maybe?  

[CallMaker]

My choice would be the sleeve system. Simple, strong, reliable, proven results...plus it looks good.

[recurvericky]

I have only built one bow using the bow bolt so I am by no means a expert on the it. When I decided to use the bow bolt, I contacted the Craig Warren at Warren Archery who makes it. I pulled no punches and told Craigs that I had read alot of post concerning failures with the bow bolt and wanted to get his input. Craig stated that of all the failures that he was aware of were due to the instructions not being followed. Craig stated that not all riser woods lend themselves to use with the bow bolt. If they are used, they have to be beefed up with glass or phenolic. Also, you must use MT-13 adhesive. Personally, I really like the look and function of the bow bolt. If you are considering using it, call Craig, he will answer all of your questions.

[Savage]

I really like the looks of a 1 piece longbow so I would prefer one that you couldn't tell when its assembled as well. I don't care for the looks of a 3 piece longbow. The only 2 pc Ive ever shot was the connexion hinge and didnt like that. The sleeve to me seems like it would be weak since the wood on the outside would be pretty thin. It's my opinion that the bolt would be the most durable.

[AkDan]

protege lb...the last picture posted right before my post, my last post.  I was warned it was a flawed design by another bowyer.  

I have to admit it was the finest shooting bow I've ever owned.   But it cracked just like I was told it would.

Has a place of honor on my wall!  still trying to find one that I can shoot as well as that bow shot!

[John Sturtevant]

I’ve used the Connexion hinge, brass sleeves, three piece, bow hinges and the composite sleeves on both glass bows and BB backed bows.  Someone gave me 4 bow bolts the other day…and I’ll mess with them when time allows.

They all have their pro’s and cons.

Nothing is quicker or simpler then the connexion type hinge.   Properly installed it is very unlikely to fail.   I don’t like the looks much…but it’s a pretty good system if you have limited skills or tools and very easy to retrofit on an existing bow.

The composite sleeve is becoming my favorite.    Low cost, very strong, not all that difficult and you can’t tell it’s a takedown when finished.   Bit more time consuming at first…but once you’ve done a few and have a jig to hold the bow while wrapping it’s pretty quick.

[Sixby]

John , I did mine with out a jig. I super glued the two pieces together with two tiny dots of glue. Just getting it glued together and aligned was a terrible time. finally did it though.
Then I like to never got it apart but man what a fit . It is perfectly tight and super strong. The bow I did is 65 lb so its a true test of the system and there is no give or flex at all. I really worked it out and love it.
A jig for this job is a must though and I will definately build one if I decide to do this. Do you have any pics of yours?

God Bless, Steve

[PZee]

I can't seem to find the build along I found yrs ago on another site. I'm sure it was on P of A. The guy that did it did a mock up on a piece of pine he shaped like the riser of the bow he was turning into a take down. I seem to recall he drilled 2 holes, one on either side before he cut the the bow in 2. Then he screwed the bow back together using the holes as guides. I think I might have posted a link on here before.....
I'll have a look.

[PZee]

http://www.piratesofarchery.net/bb/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=8014  

There we go, but you need to register to see it.

[jess stuart]

The Thunderhorn two piece is in my humble opinion the slickest of the takedowns.  Groves used to make two piece  recurve that went together with a bolt and pin system.  It was a sweet looking system.  Seems he went to the three piece after a short time. Don't know if he had problems, or people just like the idea of being able to change limbs.

[Lee Robinson .]

PZee,

Thanks for the link. I wonder if it would be better to go in more than just 1/8." It just doesn't seem like much holding it together to be honest. That fiberglass cloth must be super strong.

Will that system handle a 75#+ bow? If not, how heavy of a bow can it handle?

[BigJim]

There are several systems out there that can work but have there limitations. I can't take credit for any system since I didn't design any, but being able to choose from any drove me twords the composite socket.
I only shoot 80+ lb bows and I needed a system that cold handle that. I have never had one of my TD's fail. The socket systems are so much stronger than the rest of the bow that the sight window will fail first. I know the 3 piece system is proven and I use it too, but have more confidence in my sockets in higher draw weight bows than I do in the 3 piece plus no tools necessary and no evidence of being a TD until taken down.
I had a bow bolt fail and bloody up my side and nuckles. It was in an all wood riser of a 60lb bow. Not a good idea! It was a new bow that I shot 5 times before it blew. They will work in bows with well reinforced risers-It's not the bolt that fails, it's the bow!-

Good luck, bigjim

[BigJim]

I a customer break the tip off of one of my personal bows I sold. it was a 85lb at 30" -64" bow. I had shot this takedown many, many times. He had shot it with a 4.5 g per lb arrow about 40 times before the tip blew. He sent it to someone to have shortened to a 58" bow that drew 99lb at 28"s. This bow and socket system is still being shot today.
I will not and suggest to others not to retro existing bows with this system. Yes, lower draw weight bows and even mid weight may handle it fine, but there is no leway to adjust for alignment and the risers often have no extra support in them to handle the TD.
Protege- 1/8" is borderline but should be thicker.
There are many things to this system. It is quite easy once you have it figured out. Sixby, they are never easy to separate when building. I have had some so tight I nearly tore my vice from the bench (had someone holding the other end of the bow too). I have since remedied all of my issues in the building of the TD. I won't make myself a bow unless it is a two piece.
Good luck, Bigjim

[BigJim]

I am currently looking into stocking the materials for resale. May also offer a how to on my site also. send me a pm if this interests you.

thanks, bigjim

[Lee Robinson .]

Jim,

Thanks for the information on the strength of the locket socket. It sounds as if the locket socket is the way to go in terms of satisfying my goals when it comes to a take-down bow. I decided not to go with the "bow bolt" for many reasons. I understand the bolt itself doesn't fail, but the materials around it are the problem...but that to me suggests a design issue that lacks forgiveness in terms of final product strength. I do not want a take-down system that is prone to issues...and will not accept any sacrifices in durability.

Also, I don't like the fact that when a "bow bolt" is in the take down position that one could damage the threads on the bolt...and essentially be screwed. Limb bolts wouldn't have that problem since they could be replaced, but a bow bolt is permanent bolt and would have to be protected when taken down.

The locket socket sounds just as strong as using allen bolts and alignment pens AND it is tools free...and parts free...and it is undetectable when the bow is put together.

I will contact you for sure. I really appreciate the help. Oh, btw...thanks for helping John get the right arrows for his Protege Longbow. He told me he met you at a recent Tanneyhill shoot. He is a friend of mine and got one of the first 5 bows I ever made. Whenever I know someone looking for arrows, I always mention you first. I don't know if you remember or not, but I myself got about 5 or 6 dozen heritage shafts from you last year. I don't know how you get the great prices you do on those shafts, but it is certainly much appreciated.

[John Sturtevant]

This is the jig I use to keep things lined up when I wrap.   It's crude, but works OK and is adjustable for most bows.


 

The uprights slide wherever needed on the beam..and are then locked in place with screws.


 


The bow limb is held in place with 1/4" bolts that go thru a 1/4" pc of polycarb that is drilled and tapped.   I place the bow in the jig before cutting in 1/2 and screw the bolts snug to the side of the limbs.  Mark where the bolts hit the limbs to get it back in the same spot. I then loosen one side along the entire length to remove the bow....whack it in half and then put it back in the jig to wrap. Retighted the side I loosened up.   Gives me plenty of room to wrap the glass.   I can put the entire jig back in the hot box to cure.  


 


This is one I wrapped a couple days ago...not finished...like to shoot them awhile first to make sure they don't whimp out on me.

 

 


This ia a BB backed gemsbok horn belly bow that's supposed to shoot a gemsbok this summer.  


 

 


I'm sure BigJim knows way more about this then I do...but so far they've held up.  I need to keep working on sliming the the handles down a bit, they come out a little beefier then I like.  

Learned the hard way that you need to spend the xtra time to get the correct amount of draft on the male end or they don't like to come apart.  

I was concerned about using glass vs carbon to wrap, but visted with Black Widow at a trade show and they claimed all they used was glass.  I'm using one kevlar wrap followed with glass.

[rainman]

Love that Carp skin John.

[BigJim]

Weather or not it is necessary, I use one wrap of carbon for a couple of reasons. First I believe in over building. Second, it looks different. I place it at a stage in the wraps that tells me when I need to stop sanding before the socket gets too thin. I see the carbon and I know I can't sand any more. I have built over 150 fiberglass socket td's. and although it can be a little time consuming, they are a cinch to build (IMHO). Nearly half of all the bows I make are ordered as two piece. I also choose to use glass instead of phenolic in the riser. phenolic is tough, but is very flexible. Glass is considerably stronger and won't flex. Risers that don't flex as much have less problems and less handshock. The glass I'm using is also very nice to work with. Cuts and shapes super easy and no weave lines like you have in phenolic.

thanks, bigjim