Most preferred take-down system for longbows?

[Sixby]

John, Big Jim, Thanks for your goodness in sharing. I truly appreciate it. I went the other way and built three pieces right off the bat. I decided to try this because to me it just looked so nice. The one bow I have done convinced me that it is the way to go. besides the stink of the jell and having such a scarey time getting the bow apart I love it. Next time its epoxy and I will follow Jims protocol of using a wrap of carbon. I too have gone to glass in the risers for the same reasons. I do use phenolic on the back of some of my designs because I like milling it perfectly flat and mounting my limbs on it. John I believe the key to the thinness youj are desiring would be a 100 percent phenolic riser or at least a heavy phenolic I beam. Then you can make the handle thin like you want. I would not trust any wood going much thinner than you are going. JMHO.

God bless you all and again thanks, Steve

[BigJim]

Sixby- with glass in the riser, you can make it nearly what you want. Understand that to make one 80+ lbs, I would suggest more glass, or more grip. I use the same glass in my personal bows, but my grips are what I would call a large. I would only change if someone wanted a real high draw weight and a small or xtra small grip.
I use a 1/4" wide I beam that goes from belly to back. It is offset enough that it will barely show when the shelf and window are finished. Entire glass or phenolic risers are not necessary. Also the resin I use has little to no oder. Release agent is critical though. I switched from one company to another and didn't switch release agents. Big mistake. I had made up 3 take downs and hadn't tried to pull them apart until I had all three ready. New resin burned through the release agent. Turned them all back into one piece bows again.
Don't get me wrong. This is a painstaking process at least in the beginning, but it is worth it.
Bigjim

[John Sturtevant]

BigJim, I'm using the kevlar similar to how you use the carbon.  
Once I start to see a yellow tinge when sanding I know I need to stop.

What I was told was that carbon was the strongest (depending on how you measure strength) followed by kevlar and then glass.  
I need to get some carbon to try, I'm told it wets better then kevlar also.

You should make a "how-to" DVD in your "spare time"    and sell it along with the supplies.   I'd be one of your first customers...I'm trying to figure all this out thru trial and error.

Speaking of errors;
Usually when I try something new I don’t really screw it up until the 2nd or 3rd time when I start to get a little cocky.
 
 That’s when I need and get another lesson in humility.

For some reason, on the 3rd sleeve I tried I did not leave much of a parallel surface on the male end…in other words I ran my angled cut almost up to the shoulder.  
When I strung the bow for the first time…and starting studying the joint where the two halves meet up it looked like there was a bit of a gap.    
NAW…just my imagination, I thought…and I gave it a couple trial pulls and then realized there WAS a gap…and it was growing a little bit every time I gave the string a little tug.    
Uh-oh…I thought…better get this thing unstrung before it comes apart in my face.

I almost made it, but it flew apart.    It’s now a one piece bow.  

[Walt Francis]

John, I like the jig.  It is good to see you posting.

Everybody, thanks for the information regarding the socket system, I have two bows fully tillered and am waiting on finishing the handle section until I have a soscket build plan fully developed.

[PV]

Originally posted by John Sturtevant:
This is the jig I use to keep things lined up when I wrap.   It's crude, but works OK and is adjustable for most bows.


Learned the hard way that you need to spend the xtra time to get the correct amount of draft on the male end or they don't like to come apart.  

Your jig looks like a winner to me John !!Nowhere near as crude as the set up I've been using. Thanks for posting it!

What are you guys using for a release agent? I've been dipping the male end in wax. That creates it's own set of issues. You've got to get all of the wax out of the wood for the finish to work,then build up the finish to match the thickness of the wax you just removed.

[Sixby]

Jim, when I am talking about solid phenolic I am only referring to specific instances , like a thin grip and heavy poundage. We must think somewhat alike because I have been building a lot of bows with a 1/4 in offset black phenolic I beam and with glass accents on each side of the beauty stripe. Also on my Talons I went from Phenolic overlays to glass overlays. Much stronger and stiffer. I was not doing it because the glass ruins band saw blades. However I have a bunch of old blades. (all bowyers do probably) and I grab one of them to cut the window and profile out with . Just takes a bit more time.
Jim , do you sell the resin and glass for the builds. I would be interested in buying some and some release if you do.
God bless you all and again thanks John for the pic of the jig. BTW your bow looks just like mine  

[BigJim]

I will do a build a long and have it on my site. There it will be permanant and I don't know how to do pics here anyway.
If your jig works for you, that is great, but I think I may have a simpler set up, well at least for me.
Whatever you do, don't round your risers out completely. I have placed an order for materials from all of my suppliers. I will put them together in kits. The smallest kit will do about 5 bows. Of course you don't need to do that many, but that is as small as I can get it without repackaging.
Understand, the way I do the socket is what I have found the easiest for me. You may have ways of modifying it. I have had a couple that didn't turn out as I planned. could have probably saved them, but I ain't doin that. Haven't had an issue since the first couple of bows though.
All this can be done with hand tools, but more specialized tools really make it easy.
thanks, bigjim

[BigJim]

Sixby- I will be selling the kits by next week. If you look in to getting the lennox trimaster carbide blade, you won't regret it.

I have a grizzly bandsaw with this blade on it. At best, I replace this blade twice a year, but usually not more than once. yes it is $125 dollars, but I have used them to cut out all of my risers and all of my bows and every little thing that I need cut like new bow forms and antler etc. I have cut over 120 + bows out with one blade, maybe a good bit more. Most all of my risers have glass in them too. If you ain't got good tools, your just playing!  
BigJim

[John Sturtevant]

Jim, looking forward to the build-a-long and your materials being available.  
Always open to better ways and appreciate you taking the time to pass along your knowledge on this system.

The jig I use was made for bamboo backed horn-belly bows.   All a bit different and shot in before turning into a takedown so I needed something adaptable to most shapes.    At the time I wasn’t messing with glass bows, just something I’ve been playing with recently for a change of pace.    

PV, I’ve been applying finish to the male end first and then using a wax that is similar to the commercial mold release agents.    I believe having the wood sealed and smooth helps when taking it apart.   I tried the dipping in paraffin route but it was too thick unless I heated it up again to try and thin the wax out.  Keep in mind I’m still trying to learn how to do this.  My bow building...like my life...is just one continuous joyful experiment.   I believe the right way to do it will be on Jim’s website soon.  

[Lee Robinson .]

Jim, thanks for being so willing to share your knowledge on the locket socket take down system.

[Sixby]

Thanks Jim, I have tried two of the lennox carbide blades. They both broke so many times I gave up on them. they did cut good until they broke. I had the last one welded 4 times before I tossed it. Thanks for the tip though, It sounds like you are getting good ones. BTW I am not the only one that has breakage problems. I know at least three other bowyers with same problems with them. I would love to get 50 bows out of a blade. That would be awsome to me. I averaged three or four bows with my last two Lennoxs.
God bless you all, Steve

[recurvericky]

I am looking forward to the "How to" on your site Jim. I have a Martin X-200 that I am planning on doing a socket take down on .

[Canadabowyer]

Jim, what size of bandsaw(wheel diameter) do you use the Lennox Trimaster carbide blade on and how many teeth per inch? I had one for a 10" Inca saw and it broke all the time like Sixby is saying. Finally I asked a saw filer for the sawmill I worked at and he said the breakage was because the small wheels created too tight a turn for the stiff blade. I now have  a 17" Grizzly and am wondering if the trimaster would be good on it. Bob

[BigJim]

Bob- I have mine on a grizzly ultimate. It is a 14" saw and although it is not ultimate, it does what I ask of it. I never change the blade until it starts snagging the belly side glass when cutting. I have built at least 400 bows since I started using these blades and I have only had maybe 5, but can only remember 4. I buy the 1/2" blade and don't believe there is a tooth option.
I have replaced all the shielded guide bearings with sealed guide bearings (must have the rubber gasket on each side to be sealed bearings). Haven't had any bearing problems since.
good luck, bigjim

[Canadabowyer]

Thanks Jim, I am going to give one a try. Bob

[Lost Creek Bows]

The socket takdown system seems like the way to go, for a two piece bow. I can't wait to see Big Jim's, how to video. I would also be interested in buying the Kit. Chad

[Steve B.]

I'm working on an osage bow right now with this takedown system.  Comes in large and small.  I know this sleeve system is proven and I like how it adds weight to the bow.

   takedown

[Sixby]

Steve, The quality of those sleeves varies greatly. If you get a good , high quality socket fit they are great. Sadly many poor quality ones have been made and sold and after a period of time they loosen up badly. I had a nice Fox with one and it was very loose.

God bless, Steve

[Steve B.]

Sixby,
I'm glad you told me.  I've experienced several that are on bows that have been around a long time and they are solid and yet work well.  I wonder if you can tell if there's going to be a problem when you purchase?  In other words, can hand selecting a good tight fit ensure future function?  
I'll probably go for it anyway but I'll be watching closely to see how it performs over the long run.

Thanks

[Jason Kendall]

Its about time Jim!  :D   I have been hoping you would do a kit for quite sometime.

And John, put the glass strips down and walk away! Your BBO's are works of art, you dont need no stinkin' glass!