Good Deal on Port Orford Cedar Shafts?

[SEMO_HUNTER]

There was a post over in Pow Wow about multi flora rose shafts, the guys collecting them evidently love them. That stuff grows everywhere in Missouri and it's considered to be a nuisance. I guarantee that if you asked anybody that has a pasture full of it if you could cut some, they would tell you to take it all.

I try to think like an Indian as much as possible, they were oppurtunistic, wasted nothing, and used anything they could find. So I agree with Living Waters......don't let anybody deter you or discourage you from thinking outside the box. Use your imagination, creativity, and rely on your instincts. You just might surpise yourself to see what you can come up with.
If you come up with any cool ideas, be sure and share with the group. I love creative new ideas.

[Living_waters]

just a little history I find interesting with the Pittman-Robertson act. Fred Bear fought congress for setting aside half of the 11% archery tax to go for the establishment and upkeep of archery ranges. Later on it was realized that local shops that made arrows were not doing so because of the tax on the finished arrows. In 1994sen Orin Hatch wrote Senate Bill S. 815 and hand delivered it to all his senator colleges with an arrow stuck through it, this bill repealed the tax on custom made arrows and placed the tax on the arrow component makers. This was signed into law by clinton in 97' under the Taxpayer Relief Act of 1997. A loophole in the law does not cover imported archery items, so your imported bows and arrows both finished and components are not contributing to the tax.

[Living_waters]

being from Missouri another thing I find interesting is it receives the least amount of funding through this tax, but it is the only state that has a special tax to fund its own local resources. Also some states obtain as much as 91% of the revenue from this tax to fund their fish and wildlife departments, not sure how I feel on that one.    

[snag]

Just spoke with a guy from the company selling these. These shafts are rejects! Culls of the highest degree! Not intended to make arrow with these...definitely tomato stakes.

[snag]

That list doesn't have Oregon on it...hmmm?

[Living_waters]

Originally posted by snag:
Just spoke with a guy from the company selling these. These shafts are rejects! Culls of the highest degree! Not intended to make arrow with these...definitely tomato stakes.

Just a thought, if he admitted they could make arrow shafts he would be liable for $400 tax to the feds. Same thing with knapped heads you see that say "not for hunting novelty only" they may be a little unrefined but a knapped rock is a knapped rock, people use knapped glass heads to hunt with. But as long as the say novelty on them they dont have to pass on the 27 cents(if it is a $2.50 rock) plus the cost of doing the paper work. difference between a $2.50 head and a $10 head is 2 minutes back knapping and the cost to pass on the excise tax.

[Don Stokes]

I believe he would only be liable for the tax if he manufactured the dowels and sold them for shafts. If he's just reselling them, as well as I can remember he's not liable for the taxes. I used to manufacture shafts, and paid the taxes, gladly, because the money goes to good uses.

Use these for your tomatoes maybe, but not for arrows. Good shafting can be had from hardware store dowels, but I would avoid the heavier ones like oak, which doesn't normally have good spine for its weight. Yellow poplar dowels make good ones, but you need to be able to read the grain to be sure they are safe to use. Likewise ramin, which is even harder to read. Birch is not too light, but it's hard to get good quality. Practically any species will make arrows if you can read the grain well enough to be safe, but some will be better performers than others.

[Living_waters]

That is my point the tax law says "arrow components" if he said they could also be shafts then he is selling arrow components, culls or rejects sold as tomato stakes are not arrow components. If you make an arrow out of an untaxed material then you are the manufacture under the federal tax code and liable for the tax if you sell that item. If the hardware store knowingly and intentionally sold the hardwood dowels as arrow shafts then they are liable for the tax, if you make an arrow out of them and sell them then the $.40 per shaft is yours, just the same if you knap a head and use feathers from your turkey kill you are also liable for 11% of the market tax on those components.  
If rose city (rumored who makes these culls)said they could make a second rate arrow then under the law they are making arrow shafts and since they spine more than 30# they would be taxable. If Pacforest admitted that they are also arrow shafts then they would also be liable. My point is not whether they will make an arrow, just the fact that if anyone sells them knowingly as an arrow they are liable for the tax under the law.

IF they were to be sorted through for arrows a beginning arrowsmith would not be wise to do it, there is a danger to a bad shaft, but also if they are rosecity shafts then QC may cull unmarketable shafts that may make an arrow just not one that could be sold in a $36 dozen package.

[Robertfishes]

Maybe they are culls like the Guy said..due to grain of wood..if he could sell them as shafts he could increase his profit margin even after the tax??
I just went to the link and they are being sold as cedar arrow shaft stakes

[fish n chicks]

I made these shafts from cherry dowels bought from woodcraft for $3 a piece. I would definitely look into woodcraft or rockler locally if you can. Then you can make what you can afford and at least you know what you're buying. These were my first attempt at woodies, so I didn't want to go too expensive in case I sucked at it. Which I kinda did but they turned out ok and definitely shootable.

And you know how much tax you're paying and to whom       .

   

   

   

[SEMO_HUNTER]

I think those look just fine Fish.
How does cherry compare to say cedar for instance as far as Weight to Spine is concerned? My finished cedar woodies spined to .500 from 11/32 shaft material come out right around 512gr. with 125gr. point. I guess what I'm getting at is whether cherry shafting is in the same ballpark or heavier and still get the spine I need?

That may be alot to ask?
It is some nice looking shafting though.

[fish n chicks]

Originally posted by SEMO_HUNTER:
I think those look just fine Fish.
How does cherry compare to say cedar for instance as far as Weight to Spine is concerned? My finished cedar woodies spined to .500 from 11/32 shaft material come out right around 512gr. with 125gr. point. I guess what I'm getting at is whether cherry shafting is in the same ballpark or heavier and still get the spine I need?

That may be alot to ask?
It is some nice looking shafting though.

It's considerably heavier I'd say. Mine finished up ranging from upper 600 to lower 700 grains and were spined in the upper 50#'s (I think .440 to .450 deflection)and they had 125 grain field points on em. Also they were off the shelf 3/8" dowels. Hope this helps. I'd say do it. They're awesome and hit like tanks!

[Don Stokes]

fish n chicks, I have to disagree with SEMO. Those shafts have a lot of grain runout- you can see it running from left to right in the first picture. I would not have sold such shafts when I was in the business, and I don't recommend using shafts with that much grain runout. They are pretty, but possibly dangerous.

$3 a shaft is expensive, too, especially for "shafts" with bad grain!

Please, folks, if you use hardware store dowels, use good judgement and read the grain! Nothing is worth a broken shaft through your hand.

Sorry to be negative, but as a former shaft producer I hate to see people take chances. I never had a report of a shaft that broke when shot, a fact of which I am very proud.

Remember, a shaft goes through a series of bends that stress the shaft a lot every time it's shot. It may not break today or tomorrow, but...

I no longer sell shafts, so please don't think I'm trying to push my own products. I just don't want to see anyone get hurt.

[fish n chicks]

Originally posted by Don Stokes:
fish n chicks, I have to disagree with SEMO. Those shafts have a lot of grain runout- you can see it running from left to right in the first picture. I would not have sold such shafts when I was in the business, and I don't recommend using shafts with that much grain runout. They are pretty, but possibly dangerous.

$3 a shaft is expensive, too, especially for "shafts" with bad grain!

Please, folks, if you use hardware store dowels, use good judgement and read the grain! Nothing is worth a broken shaft through your hand.

Sorry to be negative, but as a former shaft producer I hate to see people take chances. I never had a report of a shaft that broke when shot, a fact of which I am very proud.

Remember, a shaft goes through a series of bends that stress the shaft a lot every time it's shot. It may not break today or tomorrow, but...

I no longer sell shafts, so please don't think I'm trying to push my own products. I just don't want to see anyone get hurt.

That is sincere advice, and I thank you for it. I'm still very new to all of this, and appreciate the help.

[Don Stokes]

Fish, thank you for taking my comments well. I was concerned that I might offend you. Those are very good-looking arrows you made.

The problem with dowels comes from the way the log is cut in the sawmill. The first thing a mill does is square up the log. Logs are always tapered, so squaring it up requires that more is taken off the butt end than the tip end, so the lengthwise grain is cut at a slight angle from butt to tip. That's why most dowels have some grain runout. Different species have different amounts of taper, and that's one reason yellow poplar is better than most as dowels. The logs tend to have less taper than most species.

When I was manufacturing Superceder shafts, we used a lot of yellow poplar. We trained our log suppliers to bring us only straight, clear logs with straight bark patterns by paying a premium price. Even though the log taper wasn't much, we still cut our logs parallel to the grain, in alignment with the bark, so that when we took the last cuts from the log, the leftover center piece was tapered. As a rule of thumb, if we couldn't trace at least one growth ring for at least 3/4 of the length of the shaft, it went into the cull bin. Most of our shafts had rings that stayed in the shaft for the full length. That also helps to keep them straight.

Generally speaking, hardwood logs tend to have more taper than softwood logs, like Douglas fir and other Western US species that are popular for shafting material.

[rimes]

Hey Don

Since reading your post I have found myself looking at shaft material on different websites in order to figure out what a good straight grained shaft would look like. I am in the same boat as some of these guys in that I am trying to learn as much as I can. Is there any way you could post a picture of what to look out for in a good shaft and a bad shaft? I went back to the picture that fish n chicks posted and I think I know what you were talking about with grain run out, but as I was looking at shafts on other sites, I saw similar looking runout on shafts that were advertised as premium. I'm not trying to hijack this thread, just hoping to learn something. Thanks for the help guys

Kris

[Don Stokes]

Kris, I guess "premium" is a relative thing.       It's not too hard to read the grain on most species. The more distinct the grain, the easier it is to read. Yellow poplar can be challenging, and ramin is downright difficult, but Douglas fir is easy. On the side of the shaft, if you see lots of "points", then there may be too much grain runout.

I'm very anal about grain, and some grain points on the side don't necessarily mean that the shafts are bad. The closer the growth rings, the more points you will see when the grain angle is acceptable. Sorry, I don't have any pictures to illustrate what I'm talking about. I only use yellow poplar, which has rather indistinct grain, and I don't have any with bad grain to photograph anyhow.       I know other folks have posted drawings of the points on the side, in reference to the proper grain orientation to keep the splinters out of your hand if the shaft breaks, so maybe someone else can help with illustrations.

I look for the grain lines on top of the shaft, the side that you put your cock feather on when you 3-fletch. You want at least one of those grain lines to run most, if not all, of the length of the shaft.

Hope that helps.

[Matt Moline]

For a good price and quality I tried this guy  https://www.etsy.com/listing/129918338/one-dozen-12-raw-arrow-shafts-port?ref=shop_home_active  

It seemed a little cheap but the shafts are actually good quality.

[LittleBen]

Here's my take, even though it'll be buried in 3 pages of comments.

A good shaft is worth the money. Depending on what spine you need and what length, Surewood has some good deals on overstock shafts. You will need a grain scale and a spine tester for any kind of bulk shaft purchase.

There are a few suppliers that sell shafts in bulk and they are alot less money ... I think I saw at alleghany mtn arrow woods, they had like 50shafts for $100 or something like that. Just look around.

I've made shafts from dowels but you have to buy alot of them to get a decent set, and they're really not any cheaper than just buying proper arrow shafts, especially if you buy bulk (actual) arrow shafts.

[Eric Krewson]

I have used really mismatched poplar dowels and made a set of matched spine and a fairly close weight match. Tapering, sanding off excess spine matched them pretty well.

I do have all the arrow tools and toys to check spine and weight.