Using Ipe....The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly!

[SEMO_HUNTER]

A discussion continuing over from what was started in the Trade Bow thread on the woes of using Ipe. Or the success stories, I'd sure like to hear some positive tales for a change.
Please feel free to post some pics of your bows and any advice, warnings, tips, tricks, or sob stories using Ipe in a bow.
 

[Lee Slikkers]

[Art B]

Only problems I've had with ipe is with quarter sawn wood Chris. Small sections of the growth rings would hove/raise up. Plain sawn is the only cut I would use myself. Bais cut tends to twist somtimes.

What problems are you having? Art

[fujimo]

i will tell you what Bert Frelink told me- and he has built a bunch of bows- i shot an elb BBI of his for quite a while- i loved it.
he said- to always make sure the the taper on the ipe is very consistant- other wise the ipe WILL chrysall/fail.
so i geuss if the backing is inconsistant( like boo is at the nodes) then that is where the ipe is going to want to be thinner i geuss- and prone to failure.
this is where i defer to greater experience- and hope that some others chime in here- particularly Big Bert.
i have built probably six ipe bows now, all of them have been HBI, and all have survived.
some have had up to 3" of reflex glued into them and a few were only 55" long( with a 24" draw though)
but i swear by the revered gizmo, and go by what pat says about preparing hickory backings.
i glue all up with urac, i prep all with acetone, i scour all surfaces with a sawzall blade- i find the hacksaw blade not aggressive enough.
i dont like to use clamps, as i feel that they create high pressure areas- that will glue starve.
not saying they dont work- just saying what i use, that has worked for me- but i am a far cry from being an expert- say you know the definition of an expert;
ex- is a has been
spert- is a drip under pressure.
i geuss an airhose, or inner tube wrap form will work well.
but this is what i use.
   

reflex on one side. D/R on the other. clamp holes for heating and bending staves, and the short dowel rods for the stationary quality extra thick rubber bands.

[fujimo]

copied this over from the bow swap.
good idea semo.
i build them 1.25 at the fade up to 3/8" at the nock.
and i like them to bend thru the handle. flat bellies.
the one i shot of Big Berts had a well rounded belly- and shot very nicely.- very ELB style..
i try and use all the variables to keep the bow alive.
flat belly
bend thru the handle
as long as is feasible
very even and smooth/consistant taper(the GIZMO! ) - but i am sure by now everybody uses the gizmo, it has certianally saved this blind old fart from wrecking tooo many bows- i sure had a tough time getting an even tiller before i began using it!

[SEMO_HUNTER]

Originally posted by Art B:
Only problems I've had with ipe is with quarter sawn wood Chris. Small sections of the growth rings would hove/raise up. Plain sawn is the only cut I would use myself. Bais cut tends to twist somtimes.

What problems are you having? Art

I can't see any grain run off of any kind on the slats that I have, so I'm guessing it's sawn pretty close to right? It's really tough to see any grain at all cause it's so tight.

I started this new post because there seemed to be quite a few of us who had some mishaps with Ipe and the discussion started over in the Bow Swap thread, so I decided to move it to it's own thread so we wouldn't clutter up that one for Swap Bows.

I know what happened to mine and it wasn't the wood's fault it was me with my head up my arse and in too big of a hurry. I developed a barely noticeable hingy spot near the fade and rather than address it immediately I decided to exercise the limbs a little bit, then catch that spot on the next sanding session. Well, it pushed up a crack/splinter whatever you wanna call it on my boo backing right at the hingy spot. I actually think the Ipe was so strong trying to bend there that it put a tremendous amount of stress on the boo backing right at the hinge. I can't blame that on the wood, it's all on me.
At least I "Know" what I did wrong, so if there's a positive in all this I'm not left scratching my head about what went wrong.

Canopy Boy and Tennbrook also had some run ins with Ipe so I'm sure they will also stop by and join in the group discussion about how the dark mistress Ipe dooped them.  

[SEMO_HUNTER]

Originally posted by fujimo:
copied this over from the bow swap.
good idea semo.
i build them 1.25 at the fade up to 3/8" at the nock.
and i like them to bend thru the handle. flat bellies.
the one i shot of Big Berts had a well rounded belly- and shot very nicely.- very ELB style..
i try and use all the variables to keep the bow alive.
flat belly
bend thru the handle
as long as is feasible
very even and smooth/consistant taper(the GIZMO!    ) - but i am sure by now everybody uses the gizmo, it has certianally saved this blind old fart from wrecking tooo many bows- i sure had a tough time getting an even tiller before i began using it!

The gizmo is awesome and I use it on every flat profile bow I build. Even the one I'm doing now that's basically flat with the tips raised 3 1/2" but it's a BBO 64" tip to tip. It's already looking super sweet with about 8" of tip movement. Getting ready to make a short string for it and get a low brace.

Those flat profile longbows with some glued in reflex are really sweet, I just wished the gizmo would work on my R/D hybrid short bows. That's a whole different animal to try and tiller, you just have to feel it out cause the gizmo will only leave a solid line where the deflex drops in so you can't get an accurate reading.
The BBI that developed a hinge and cracked my boo was an R/D hybrid design and they will develop a hing in a heartbeat right past the fades.

What I gotta do is make a bunch of hackberry bows on the caul and practice tillering this R/D design, then if I ruin some wood it's not a big deal as if I just scrapped a Ipe blank and a boo backing.    

Then when I think I've got it figured out pretty good I'll go back to the Ipe.

[canopyboy]

Ok, just finished the glue-up of ipe/boo/taketwo.  Everything went smoother this time, and I'm pretty happy.  We'll see how it tillers out this time.

As for the gizmo, the last several bows I've built/tried to build have been r/d and I'm with SEMO here -- best I've been able to figure you just have to watch the bending and feel them out.  Which is tough when you're still a newb.

I'll take a look at the grain orientation next time I'm down at the shop.  I had one ipe deckboard, probably enough to make a 1/2 dozen bows total, but not enough to be picky about grain orientation.  (I did check that it was straight.)

"Dark Mistress" -- I'll have to remember that.  Not a fitting name for this trade bow, but maybe for the one I make myself.  I was thinking we should start our own thread on this.  Way to beat me to it.

-Dave

[Goose Gossett]

The one ipe r/d that I did I was told to wait until the last 4-5" of the tillering to get the tips to open up.  The gizmo helped a ton in the tillering process.  I got the glue up from David over at primal need archery and his sanding of the bamboo was extremely great around 1/8" at the edges with keeping the boo from overpowering the ipe.  I used an old knife for the scraping knowing that a rasp isn't the best approach from what I heard.  I have a large store of ipe sitting to the side of the shop and a few bamboo backings I'm looking to cut out and sand up soon.  Curious to the benefits of using a specific sawed board or if it matters much as I have much to choose from.  

Building the bamboo backed bow DVD by Torges did help a ton in understanding the glue up method for a bamboo bow.  I know it's not ipe in the video (osage) but it does help quite a bit with understanding the properties of bamboo.  Where to start the reflex/deflex and how much to induce can make a huge difference and whatnot.  

 
 

[okie64]

Biggest problem with ipe is being able to see those little bitty pin knots that it usually has.

[SEMO_HUNTER]

Sharp looking bow Goose, you nailed that tiller perfect man!

Okie- I don't know how you all can see anything on Ipe? It's so dark chocolate brown that I can't even make out the grain until I hit it with a rasp or sandpaper, but then my eyes have been getting worse for seeing things close up. I finally got a pair of reading glasses for close up detail work. It sucks getting old.

Dark Mistress just sounded like it fit well because Ipe is dark and mysterious, yet seductive and sweet if you work it right.  

[fujimo]

i hear you guys on the R/D tillering- thats a tough one.
i like to use a spokeshave, for most of the work, then finishing with cabinet scrapers, but i will use  both  coarse and fine rasps for targeting specific stiff spots.
i find a nicely sharpened spokeshove , working the whole limb or part thereof in one stroke, really helps to keep the taper consistant, and for the most parts eliminates stiff spots.
that also keeps the dust down.
nice bow goose!!- those arrows have gotta spit outta there. ipe is notorious for producing some fast/hard shooting bows.

[fujimo]

here is my new ipe bow i am working on. i had this blank already glued up,
 
and after reading 4ests buildalong with his oak board bow, i figured i would try some flipped tips.
(and i have read on this forum that the ipe does not like to steam well)- so i glued on some new hickory tips ala-4est,with some tb3- gave a nice invisible glue line between the two hickories.
just got it bending, and will continue to tiller as soon as i have mailed my swap bow in the next few days.

[canopyboy]

Took the 2nd attempt out of the oven this morning (timer turned off the heat around 2am).  Looks good.

 

One thing I've noticed about using smooth-on and curing at 180deg for 4+ hours is what it does to the wood.  The oven cycle seems to bend your wood somewhat like steaming would.  I know on the first bow, I cut a strip off the side to bring it to width and that 1/8" strip had no boo on it.  But the ipe kept the shape of the form to this day.  And this glue up I used backing strips when clamping out of the left over bamboo thickness I resawed off.  And those strips kept the shape when unclamped and tossed to the side.

 

I know that smooth-on works at room temp if you leave it long enough, but these results have me sold on the oven concept.

[Art B]

As was mentioned, a nice consistant pre-tapered blank to start with and a flat belly in the working area. It's rather easy to get a nice taper on a board to start with, which will evenly stress the entire limb from the get go. Never found a need for a gizmo myself using this method.

[SEMO_HUNTER]

You touched on a very important subject there Art and I wish I could figure out how to do that on my belt sander.........even taper from center handle area to the tip. I'm not talking about side taper, I'm talking about thickness taper.
If I could start out thicker in the center of my Ipe blank and taper from there all the way down to the tips it would make tillering the R/D hybrid design much, much easier I think.

I have yet to be able to do a decent job of that with just my belt sander and I don't want to screw up a bunch of material trying to figure that out.

[canopyboy]

I added some pics to the previous post this morning.

As for the thickness taper on the ipe, I used the tablesaw with a 30 second taper jig out of scrap.  Worked great.  I think if a guy had his bandsaw set up for good, straight cuts with a fence, that would work just as well.

[Art B]

That belt sander is your problem Chris. Try using just hand tools on your next one.

Funny thing about really hard woods like ipe, harder they are, the easier they work with hand tools. Ipe will eat up a circular saw blade but seems to be as soft as walnut when using a farrier's rasp and scraper on it........Art

[4est trekker]

I've had the same woes as Art B stated in his first post.  I was working on a BBI, but had problems on the belly with the grain raising out.  So, I've thinned it down and am in the process of adding an osage belly.  We'll see how that turns out...

[SEMO_HUNTER]

Originally posted by 4est trekker:
I've had the same woes as Art B stated in his first post.  I was working on a BBI, but had problems on the belly with the grain raising out.  So, I've thinned it down and am in the process of adding an osage belly.  We'll see how that turns out...

I'm so glad you jumped in here and told us that 4est, because I'm getting ready to do the exact same thing on the one I'm working on. I need to add a lam under the area where the boo cracked and stiffen up my fades so I was thinking an osage lam also. Maybe we can help each other through it? I might need to get your thoughts on how long I should go with the lam.

At first I thought about from the fades to about mid limb, because now that I had to take more Ipe off to straighten out that hingy area I'm under weight as well with this bow.
So should I put an osage lam the entire length of the limb or would from the fade to mid limb do the job I'm looking for?

At least I know I was thinking along the right lines with using an osage lam on the belly. That makes me feel better about it.