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Author Topic: Hypothetical question  (Read 8288 times)

Offline Talondale

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Re: Hypothetical question
« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2007, 05:45:00 PM »
That doesn't seem right wtpops, because the deer and the bowyer are traveling at the same speed relatively to each other the arrow speed would be the speed that the arrow hits the deer with.  Think of it this way, a target and a shooter are both traveling x miles per hour on the earth as it spins in space and the arrow speed is what is measured in that instance.  If you shot towards the direction the earth is rotating does your arrow speed change?  

I know planes measure both ground speed and airspeed because with a strong headwind the amount of air passing over the wing could be great but I have actually been stationary, or even moving backwards, in relation to the ground.

Offline wtpops

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Re: Hypothetical question
« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2007, 05:52:00 PM »
Yes but if you think of it this way. Put a glass window the full lenght of the truck then a spectator is standing on the side of the road, the archer releaces the arrow just as they get to the spectator. The spectator would see the arrow stand still and the back of the truck run into the arrow
TGMM Family of the Bow
"OVERTHINKING" The art of creating problems that weren't even there!

Offline wtpops

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Re: Hypothetical question
« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2007, 05:53:00 PM »
Ok now my frountal lob hurts time to go out in the back yard a shoot some arrows.
TGMM Family of the Bow
"OVERTHINKING" The art of creating problems that weren't even there!

Offline skeaterbait

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Re: Hypothetical question
« Reply #43 on: January 02, 2007, 05:54:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by wtpops:
Yes but if you think of it this way. Put a glass window the full lenght of the truck then a spectator is standing on the side of the road, the archer releaces the arrow just as they get to the spectator. The spectator would see the arrow stand still and the back of the truck run into the arrow
I wonder if that's how they filmed The Matrix.
Skeater who?

Offline Van/TX

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Re: Hypothetical question
« Reply #44 on: January 02, 2007, 08:51:00 PM »
:knothead:    :bigsmyl:  ...Van
Retired USAF (1966 - 1989)
Retired DoD Civilian (1989 - 2009)
And drawing Social Security!
I love this country ;-)

Offline infosponge

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Re: Hypothetical question
« Reply #45 on: January 02, 2007, 09:21:00 PM »
Allow me to cut through some of the cluter here..
The one constant in this equation is that all the objects in the hypothetical scenario are all moving at the same speed before the arrow is released. Therefore it doesn't matter if you were going 200 fps or 2000 fps. It is all constant.
   
  Therefore it is my belief that the only way that the arrow would fall directly to the ground is if the truck were accelerating so quickly that it created enough G's to be equal to the amount of energy the arrow was absorbing at the moment of release. Only in a scenario such as this do you have an opposing force on the arrow.

Right???
Vegetarian--old indian word for bad hunter.

Offline Keenan

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Re: Hypothetical question
« Reply #46 on: January 02, 2007, 10:41:00 PM »
Nope Troy, Ya missed the details. You would be shooting in the opposite direction as you are traveling thus causing the speeds to cancle each other out. But what do I know I  started pondering this dumb thought and now I'm not sure that I knew what I thought I was thinking about when I thought it. So if I didn't know what I thought I was thinking about when I thought it was it really a thought at all,,,,Lol  Keenan
Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you.He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who lives in you.

Offline Basic Instinct

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Re: Hypothetical question
« Reply #47 on: January 02, 2007, 10:51:00 PM »
Awesome!!! I'm on muscle relaxers and pain killers for my back right now, This is clear as mudd.
Rejoice in the lord always, And again I say Rejoice.

Offline Brian Krebs

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Re: Hypothetical question
« Reply #48 on: January 03, 2007, 04:12:00 AM »
left wing or right wing fletch- straight or helical???

 How far is the bed of the truck from the ground?
THE VOICES HAVEN'T BOTHERED ME SINCE I STARTED POKING THEM WITH A Q-TIP.

Offline Swanny in MD

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Re: Hypothetical question
« Reply #49 on: January 03, 2007, 04:21:00 AM »
What does this have to do with bowhunting?

Doesn't this belong in the hypothetical forum?  :)

Offline Tom Leemans

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Re: Hypothetical question
« Reply #50 on: January 03, 2007, 10:08:00 AM »
O.K. but what if you use FF string?

You can't fight physics. If you shoot in the same direction, you'll just end up running over your arrow. Maybe you could try it with one of the arab "returning" arrows from that other thread?
 :knothead:  

If you shoot in the opposite direction, can you get better penetration on an elk with a light draw weight and a multi-blade head?  :help:
Got wood? - Tom

Offline DarkeGreen

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Re: Hypothetical question
« Reply #51 on: January 03, 2007, 11:36:00 AM »
If someone was standing on the ground and launched an arrow the same direction of travel at the correct time it would appear to fall to the ground behind the truck.  :)

Offline Jake H

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Re: Hypothetical question
« Reply #52 on: January 03, 2007, 02:05:00 PM »
The problem with almost all physics problems is that it all depends on your frame of reference and your initial conditions.   Physics is only absolute in an infinite frame of reference.

Let's suppose you have a truck (or better yet a 'physics sled'- a theoretical cart that moves perfectly smoothly ) moving at 160fps in a straight line. (as a vector +160fps)

Our archer on the sled fires an arrow at 160fps in the exact oposite direction of the movement of of the sled (which means, as a vector the arrow is moving at -160fps)

And let's do it all in a vacuum so there's no aerodynamic effects.

From the frame of reference of the archer, the arrow would fly off the bow at 160fps because the archer and arrow start at 0 speed relative to each other.   In fact, if the archer was in a closed box on the physics sled (which moves perfectly smoothly) he would have no reason to believe (and no way to prove) that he was moving at all.  It would all be the same as if he was standing on solid ground. (general relativity)

However, in the frame of reference of the ground, we see the walls of the closed box are moving at 160fps on top of the sled.  

So, for the arrow to be moving at 160fps relative to the walls of the box as it appears to the archer, the arrow must have 0 velocity in the frame of reference of the ground.   If the arrow had any speed at all.. say 20fps relative to the ground.. then the archer would see it moving at 180fps-- which I'm sure would be a nice surprise.  

So, from the frame of reference of an observer on the ground, the arrow would stop in space (zero velocity ) and the archer would speed away from it at 160fps.

In the closed box the arrow would slam into the box moving at 160fps.  If the arrow didn't hit something solid, the physics sled would move out from under it and eventually it would accellerate under gravity straight to the ground. (having 0 velocity and momentum in the ground's frame of reference)

Of course it wouldn't be quite like that because the arrow does't have infinite accelleration so through part of its flight it will actually be moving slower than 160fps which means, from the ground frame of reference, it will be 'flying backwards' even though from the archer's frame of reference it will be moving clearly away from the bow at all times.

This experiment is easy enough to do in a sciene lab with slower moving objects (which are also less affected by aerodynamics making the vacuum condition less important).  

No energy is 'lost' since the moving arrow has kinetic energy in the direction of the sled and the bow adds kinetic energy in the oposite direction doing work to accellerate the arrow in a new direction.  (or to DEcelerate the arrow if you're in the ground frame of reference)

The reason none of this looks like it does in real life is because we're ignoring SO many variables like aerodynamic effects--

In theory, if you stand in the box of a moving truck and throw a softball our in front of the truck you should see it fly off ahead of you (truck velocity plus throw velocity).  In reality you're going to be going to the dentist because the softball will rapidly decellerate due to air resistance and you'll catch up to it with your teeth.  Not pretty. (however, at no point is the softball ever moving 'towards' you in the ground frame of reference   ;)   )

Jake
(who just sprained a brain lobe)

Offline Keenan

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Re: Hypothetical question
« Reply #53 on: January 03, 2007, 03:12:00 PM »
Congratulations  Jake!!! Excellent analogy and discription.Especially the part about the baseball in the teeth,,,lol   Keenan
Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you.He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who lives in you.

Offline Brian Krebs

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Re: Hypothetical question
« Reply #54 on: January 03, 2007, 11:38:00 PM »
I just can't understand:And let's do it all in a vacuum so there's no aerodynamic effects.

 This seems a bit silly. We don't bowhunt in vacuums.....
THE VOICES HAVEN'T BOTHERED ME SINCE I STARTED POKING THEM WITH A Q-TIP.

Offline Jake H

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Re: Hypothetical question
« Reply #55 on: January 04, 2007, 08:34:00 AM »
Of course it's silly.  We don't bowhunt from the backs of trucks moving at 109mph either.  (well, maybe in Manitoba....  ;)   )

It's NOT a hunting question is it?  

(I was wondering why it's lasted so long in the PowWow forum )

The reason for limiting my example to a vacuum is because aerodynamic effects are VERY complicated and people were getting confused enough by the simple case.

If you want to describe the scenareo with full attention to drag forces, turbulence and so forth, be my guest.  Feel free to include the myriad perturbations from the bouncing vehicle too.

Jake
(who, being simple, likes to keep examples the same way)

Offline DarkeGreen

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Re: Hypothetical question
« Reply #56 on: January 04, 2007, 02:50:00 PM »
What happens if you jump up in the air and shoot when you're on the vacum packed truck on a sled?  ;)

Offline Jake H

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Re: Hypothetical question
« Reply #57 on: January 04, 2007, 03:25:00 PM »
You run right into the picture of the tunnel that you painted on the rockface with your 'Acme Instant Fake Tunnel' kit.

and the roadrunner gets away... again.

Jake
(who always wonders why the coyote didn't just order out for Acme Fried Chicken)

Offline JasonV

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Re: Hypothetical question
« Reply #58 on: January 04, 2007, 04:02:00 PM »
DG - same as if you stood still on the sled -since you're not changing your horizontal reference point relative to the sled.....

But I'm still betting on the roadrunner....
The beaten path is for beaten men.

Offline loco_cacahuate

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Re: Hypothetical question
« Reply #59 on: January 04, 2007, 06:57:00 PM »
What happens to the beer bottle thrown at the road sign in the vacumn packed, sled-truck?
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