I want to try some carbons, need info

[Dave Bulla]

Well, we had a little get together here in Kansas city today and I got to shoot a couple carbon arrows and I have to say I was impressed with how they flew.  Now, I've tried some carbons once before and they flew well, but they didn't hit the same place as my woodies.  Today I shot some that flew better than my woodies but they were a good bit too short for my 31-32" draw.  Scrunching up just a little bit I was able to shoot them but the TIP of the point was coming back into the middle of the shelf area.   :eek:  

Tom, if you read this, can you tell me how long your arrows are?  I'm thinking you said 29 inches?

I can't recall the name on them but I think one  had '250' on the shaft and 60-75.

Question is, if that shaft flew well, how much stiffer would I need if using a full length arrow?  I tried to use the chart in Cabellas in one of the arrow shaft boxes but I just kinda got the feeling that while it might work great for wheel bows it might not be quite as accurate for a trad bow.  I mean, they only give one choice (recurve) with no mention of performance level, string type etc and their only draw length refference was something like under 26 3/4" or over 26 3/4".  I don't know squat about carbons but I know my woodies and when you start getting over about 30" of arrow the spine charts just about go out the window and higher than expected spines are needed.  Does the same apply to carbons?

I think I may need the 400's (Is that number even relavent?) but I don't want to spend $90.00 on shafts only to find they don't work for me.

So, he'p me out hea.....

My bow is a 66" Lonetree which is basically a pretty high performance hybrid longbow with a fast flight (or similar) string and it is 60# at 30 inches and as I said, I pull about 31 1/2 (back of the bow) or 32" plus measured amo style give or take a bit depending on clothing and how much I stretch out.

I only want shafts with internal components.

I'd like to know about the brass or steel inserts I always hear guys talk about.  My "go to" broadhead is a Zwickey two blade glue on but I guess I'll either need to buy some screw ins or some sort of screw in adapter.

What kind of total point weight should I look for?

I'm open to all suggestions but I'd really like to hear from someone with a similar draw length and weight setup.

[Benny Nganabbarru]

G'day Dave!

For your long draw length, I'd recommend the stiffest of the GoldTip Traditionals. They come in 75/95s, 55/75s, and 35/55s, I think. The numbers are just a really rough guide to match them with bow poundage, but your long draw will require the 75/95s. Get them cut to the length you want.

Then, keep your favourite Zwickey broadheads, and matching field points, and put a 125 grain steel adaptor in (they align really well). Do whatever you do to tune using the insert that comes with the shaft.

If you find that the arrow is too stiff, you can screw-in these little brass weights on the back-end of the insert (you'd have to heat it up to take it out if you've glued it in). These little weights come in 5 grains, 20 grains, and 50 grains, I think.

If your arrow is not stiff enough, then the easiest way to correct that might be to swap the 125 grain steel adaptor for a 100 grain one, or a 75 grain one. Then there are the aluminium ones which weigh 42 or 35 grains.

The people at Black Widow are really big on fine-tuning carbon shafts, especially with the GoldTip system. There may be other places to get this stuff, though. At present, 3Rivers doesn't have GoldTip shafts or the screw-in internal weights for these (they have other systems, but I don't know anything about them). But, at Black Widow, they do have a GoldTip test kit available, where you get a few different shafts and weights to fiddle around with, before deciding on what you want.

Two DVDs where Ken Beck of Black Widow demonstrates carbon arrow tuning with what I've mentioned are the "Black Widow Owner's Manual Companion" DVD and the "Masters of the Barebow II" DVD.

I hope this helps,

Ben

[JRY309]

Dave picking out a carbon can be alittle tuff.But Sipsey River now sells two shaft test kits in Carbon Express and GT's for $12 to $14 in the spine you would like to try.Just another option.

[Big'n]

Dave, I shoot a 60" 65# @32" BW recurve and a Cx 250 Heritage is on the border line(meaning I've only got 100 grs. up front). I would recommend the CX 350 Heritage with plenty of weight up front. You talk about not wanting to spend $90 and then the arrows not work out. At your draw (like mine) you probably don't get the option of cutting your arrows so if you try to bareshaft one and they don't work out you can trade them for lighter shafts on the arrow classifieds here. They go quick when they are uncut. I would give John a call at Sipsey River Trad Archery as he has both CX and GT arrows for the cheapest price you're likely to find. God Bless, DAVE

[Problem Child]

I also suggest Sipsey River.

[Shawn Leonard]

The problem with all the suggestions above is no one asked how the bow is cut. Is it cut to center or well past or not too center. If it is not cut to center than the 250's at 32"s with 175-200 grains of point weight would be good. The GTs are garbage in my opinion as they do not hold up to stumpin' for beans. If the bow is cut past center than the Heritage 350 at 32"s may be perfect for ya with a point weight from 200-250, ya have to experiment a bit. I would think you will be on the upper end of point weight with the 350s and ya may need more than that. It is not that hard to get them to tune with todays combination of weights and inserts available. I would myself go with the 350s and adjust point weight for perfect flight. You are shooting around 65#s so I would start with 100 grain brass inserts, than work on point weight. Shawn

[ISP 5353]

Dave,  All the guys have given you some good advice to get you started.  Carbons are not hard to work with and tune, but they are a little different.  Everyone you ask will have a different brand preference.  I have tried most of them and can honestly say that most carbon shafts manufactured today are pretty good.  Much better than a few years ago. So try Goldtips, or Beman, or whatever brand you like.  With your set-up I would try a .400 spine to start with, but I would not be surprised if you need to go to a .340.  Carbon shafts seem to recover from paradox quicker than other shafting material.  You will like carbons when you find the one that works for your bow.  I would strongly suggest that you buy a test kit or buy just a couple of shafts that are close to what you need and a test kit of different weight heads.  3Rivers sells these.  Take your time and pay attentioin to what your bow is showing you.  Each bow is different, as is your shooting style.  Have fun and let us know what finally works for you.

[snag]

I recently gave the Carbon Express a try. The info. that Shawn gave me was on the money. I have loved these CE...and I was a woodie guy myself. I still love shooting them. But it is hard to argue with a tighter and more consistant grouping! The Heritage CE are wood grain. :0)

[heydeerman]

Ben is right on with his post up there. That is what I would suggest.

I shoot Vapors but hey are spined similiar to Gold Tips. In fact GT now owns Vapor but all my shafts are pre-GT buy-out.

[Gatekeeper]

Dave,

The shafts are Carbon Express 250 Heritage and Carbon Express Rebel 6075. Their cut length is 30.5” and the total arrow weight is 595 grains. Up front I have 125 grain tip and 90 grains of screw in brass inserts.

Lets do this right. This is what our Network is all about. I have some uncut shafts of both types of arrows so let me know a day that you can come over and we can spend some time testing both types of shafts. This way you won’t be out any money to find out if these shafts will work for you.

Today will work for me. The biggest plans I have is to build some natural ground blinds today.

I will shoot you a PM.

Tom

[Dave Bulla]

Hey Tom, thanks for the offer but after spending all day yesterday doing "MY" stuff, I need to do something with my wife and kids today.  What is your work like during the week?  I'm on second shift so if you are on days, we'll have to do this some weekend.  Also, is the cut length you give measured to the back of the point or the tip?  If BOP, I'll barely be able to get by with 32" shafts when shooting broadheads.

After reading the posts, I think somehing might have clicked.  Do the numbers like 250, 300 or 400 cross over directly to spine deflection in thousandths of inch?  That would make the higher numbers the weaker spined shafts....

Looking at the spine charts I thought the 400's were the stiffest arrow but now I'm not sure.

[R H Clark]

On some shafts the numbers are the deflection on some they are not.I think most shafts listed as 400 500 600 are listing deflection.

The Carbon express heritage is a good shaft IMO and heavy enough for most applications their shaft sizes are.
150 =.487 deflection 10 grains per inch
250 =.373 11 gpi
350 =.320 12 gpi

I'm not sure about length but I think they are 33".

[Big'n]

CX Heritage are 33". After some thought, I'm sure what Shawn said is right. I wouldn't even think about the 250s. I would buy the 350s and put some hundred gr. inserts in and start from there adding tip weight. It shouldn't take you long to get close.  DAVE

[jbb]

Dave, I have some uncut CX350 shafts I will give you if you would like to see how they fly.

[fatman]

...dang, look at the teamwork with these KC guys...

[Shawn Leonard]

Yup try a 33" heritage 350 if that is a bit too long cut it to 32.5", than add 100 grain brass insert. I would start with 125 grain point and work up until they point of impact bareshaft. Fletch 3 and bareshaft 3 and shoot groups with them, adjust from there. Shawn

[Gatekeeper]

Dave,

Yes I work days.

The measurement that I gave you is from the deepest point in the nock’s groove to the cut end of the arrow. A full length shaft measures 32.75”from the deepest point in the nocks groove to the end of the shaft.

I found a chart for the Carbon Express Heritage Shafts and it recommends the 350’s for 32” cut lengths and bow weights of 45-70 pounds.

 http://www.3riversarchery.com/Product.asp?i=6732  

Tom