an update to "another carp skin question(s)..."

[dinorocks]

I have read what I could find on the subject of backing a bow with carp skins but still need a little help.

I basically filleted my common carp and removed the skin.  I made sure I didn’t leave any meat on the skins.  I then soaked them in dish soap – water solution for a few days.  Next I ran my hand/fingers down the scales (from head to tail) and removed the scales…they came off surprising easily.  I was left with a descaled skin with very big scale pockets. I spread out the skins on a piece of cardboard to dry.  I was surprised that the cardboard was still wet with water after several days cooking in the sun...after closer inspection I realized that it was fish oil...not water.  I dabbed up the droplets of oil on the skin with a paper towel.  

I have another batch (two fish) of skins soaking in dish soap/water.  Not sure if I should do anything different.

I have two selfbows sanded ready to be backed (cherry and hop hornbeam)...these bows came in a bit under weight so I don’t mind experimenting a bit.  I’m assuming I will back the bow like I did my one time with snake skins...stain the back of the bow black so the colors pop a bit more, rehydrate the skins, wring them out, size up the back of the bow, add glue to the skins and another coat to the back of the bow, apply the skins, wrap bow limbs with ace bandages, and let dry.  I’m hoping that the scale pockets can be laid flat and that the true oil fills in the valleys.
 
A "couple" questions;

1.   Should I prepare the skins differently than described above to eliminate the oil that is surfacing?

2.   Is there a trick to spicing the skins to avoid a space between the skins as a result of potential shrinkage?

3.   Should I not dry the skins next time and apply the freshly scaled skin (green) directly to the bow back?  Would I need to glue the skin to the bow or would the skin naturally stick to the back of the bow?

4.   Should I prep the dried skins before applying to the bow…i.e., sand, etc?

5.   Is there a trick to dealing with the large scale pockets?

6.   Should I use something other than true oil to finish the back of the bow?

7.   Do you think that I should use the darker section of the skin above the lateral line or the lighter section of the shin below the lateral line?

8.      Is there a better way than wrapping the freshly applied skins with an ace bandage?  Cannot remember if I first covered with plastic wrap when I applied my snake skins.

Okay, I better stop asking questions now.

Thanks in advance for reading and providing guidance.

Dino

[John Scifres]

Here's the answers I can give.  I have only used grass carp though.

3. I have only applied them green.  I used TBII.

6. I used spray polyurethane.

8. I use gauze.

[Cuban Missile]

1.  Prep just how you did but instead of soaking them wash them with a bristle brush and dish soap, rinse and repeat 3 times.  This will take care of the oil.  

2. I Haven't had a problem with "shrinkage"         .... but really I haven't you can over lap the skins a little when gluing them on.  When they dry they are pretty thin and plus you are gong to seal and sand.  Its not noticeable if you line it all up.

3. Dry it first to be sure that you have taken all of the oil out of the skins.  TB III works well with the skins.  just put a thin layer on the back and let it dry then add another layer on the bow and skin and lay them down from the center to the tips using your fingers to make sure to get all the air bubbles out from underneath.

4.  Do not sand before you put them on the bow... unless you want them to be thiner, but they dry pretty thin so no need to sand.

5.  I was worried about this myself but there is no need to worry when you are smoothing out your skins and taking out the air bubbles make sure you are  doing it in the same direction that you were able to pull the scales out.  Doing this will make the pockets lay flat and when it dries it will be pretty smooth.  

6. I've never used true oil but i'm sure it would work.  After applying a coat or two go ahead and sand, and then apply another.

7.  Its up to you... you can use either just remember that what ever color your bow is it will show through the skin when dry.  These skins are pretty transparent.

8.  You could plastic wrap and then ace bandage it if you don't want to glue your bandage down too.  Try not to put too much glue down,  its a pain to get off if its on top of the skins.

Welp there's my 8 cents worth, but like the saying goes  "There's more than one way to skin a carp!"

[dinorocks]

Thanks for your input guys!  I really appreciate the time you spent answering my "couple" questions.  

Cuban M., glad you don't have a shrinkage problem :-)...the water in Illinois is probably a lot warmer than the St. Lawrence River.  

Cuban M. regarding number 6, what do you use instead of True Oil?  I figured that the poly was not thick enough to fill in the scale pockets...I may give the spray poly that John S. recommended a try as I don't have any True Oil on hand...I did find a bottle of liquid wax made from the True Oil company (cannot recall the name off hand) at an old dusty gun shop here in Northern NY.

Thanks again!

PS. to John S. - I stretch the truth a bit and tell my friends that I "know (of)" the master bowyer who made the famous Katniss bows!  Great stuff!  And great of you to donate one to the St. Jude auction!        

[John Scifres]

dino,

I'm barely a Journeyman quality bowyer but that is nice of you to say.  Thank you.

John

[macbow]

I do pretty much as all above. I use the ace bandages but remove them after 2 to 3 hours before fully dry.
I have also coated the dried skins with diluted TBIII to complete a good covering.
I also use tru-oil.
Really don't need to fill the "pockets". Bit If the skin flaps are,excessive you might trim them down a little.
Ron

[Cuban Missile]

Mac says use tru-oil.  I'm sure it works great.  I use tung-oil but I think tru-oil works great too.

[dinorocks]

This is a follow up to my carp backing project.

I stained the back of my bow black in an effort to get the colors to "pop"...I did this to a bow I backed with snake skins and it worked great!  I was not very happy with the result this time around...the glued skin was much darker than I expected (I used a common carp which I'm assuming, without seeing a grass carp, is generally darker?).

I wrapped a couple ace bandages around the newly glued skin to help hold them on during the drying process.  Mistake number 2.  I used a new type of ace bandage that is made of plastic and "sticks" to itself.  A combination of maybe wrapping the bow too tight and the relatively wide weave of the bandage left my bow with checker indentation pattern on the carp skin.  Not too noticeable.

The area where I joined two carp skins on each limb worked out okay...no shrinkage.  Next time I will have more carp skins to chose from in an attempt to get a better match of colors and scale pocket sizes where I joined the two skins together (one limb was very good, the other not as good).  I thought I had it matched up pretty good before I glued them...I'm thinking that the differing thicknesses of the skin with respect to the black bow back was responsible .

My last dilemma was getting a nice crisp clean cut of the skin along the bow limbs.  I used a rasp to "cut" the glued skin along the limb and then followed up with sandpaper (I used painters tape along the edge of the bow before I glued the skins…worked great).  I was left with a less than crisp cut...the skin frayed at the edge like beef jerky.  I applied some Tru Oil hoping that it would harden the edge of the skin so I can sand to a crisp edge...we will see.

Any comments would be greatly appreciated as I plan to back another bow with some other common carp skins I have.

Thanks,
Dino

[dinorocks]

Throwing this last post back up for feedback before I continue on.

Thanks!

PS.  I will get some picts up this weekend when I get my new camera...my old camera fell into the water while I was out fly fishing...this was my last picture...wish I had it working when Colton caught his first muskie later that day!!!

Maybe I should have held the camera in my mouth!

 

[macbow]

At least the camera went out with a great shot.

On the pattern from the ace bandage transferring to the skins.
That will happen with either type.
That's why it needs to be remove early, maybe after a hour.
Then you can smooth it out by hand a little.
I've only done one grass carp and did not blacken the back it turned out a little opaque.

I've been told that a sharp drywall or exacto knife will help with the trimming.

[Cuban Missile]

yeah a knife helps or what I like are those super sharp medical scissors that have concave blades.  With trimming you need to be extremely careful and get it "close to where you are aiming for, after that I use a smaller file because the larger rasps will as you now know fray the edge just like beef jerky when pulled apart.    

scissors look like this
 http://www.shutterstock.com/pic-17822284/stock-photo-medical-scissors.html