No epitaph.....not yet *^)

[Matt E]

I shot switch cane arrows as a child in the fifties from a crudely made bow, just a stick and string. I progressed to a factory bow and aluminun arrows . I later tried a custom bow and carbon arrows.  I now have traveled back to where I started and enjoy it more than ever.I say to each his own but if shooting a bow becomes more of a mental aggravation and complex endeavor to you back up and you just may find that simpler is more satisfying. George, you are almost there! You expressed my thoughts on this subject well. Some here get your message and others that don't,will eventually if they stay the course. You sure gave us all something to think about.Thanks a million!

[Drew]

I'm sure when Aluminum arrows came out everyone thought wood and fiberglass would disappear to.

Carbons are the "in" thing until the next best thing comes out...I've shot aluminum for years, and they have their downfall just like everything else, yet they have worked great too.
 
My woodies have taken a ton of abuse and still shoot great. (Thanks Paul Jalon!)

[jacobsladder]

yep Paul Jalon the man.... makes some sweet woodies!!!!!!!

[JC]

Whew....I bowed out of the discussion only to find plenty to weigh in behind me, so I guess I'll join in the crowd. Sorry George, the whippersnapper in me just couldn't stand it  :D  

I think Ray hit the alum #'ing change square on the head: while it may be a marketing issue in part, it also makes plain sense to cut down the 50 spines to 5...cause tuning will get you there with those "limited" choices. I know...it's not the "old school way" of doing it, but it's sure hard to argue the results.

I prefer carbon for multiple reasons and think it is a superior material. I seldom say "superior" and usually talk about opinion...but in this case I feel confident in using "superior".

Durability: Someone said something like, if polled, I'll bet carbons would be called more durable by 10/1. I don't doubt that, even if factoring in the greater number of carbon users. I used to shoot alum out of my compounds and didn't stump shoot because of durability issues. I did try alums but also discovered the joy of stumping...way more bent alums in my back yard than busted carbons. Went to a shoot that forbade carbons...I was smokin hot that day and way ahead. I lost some of my lead on 2 bad targets that I thought were my fault until I noticed very poor arrow flight on the 3rd. Someone bent my arrow while pulling (2314). I used a straight arrow for the next target and smoked it...checked the arrow and it was bent. From that point on, no-one pulled my aluminum arrows but me. Carbon is either straight or broke.

Flexibility: Taking my 64# morrison as an example, I can build arrows that weigh roughly 450gr to 850gr, all using the same 200gr head, that fly perfectly so I find them far more flexible.

Weight: As far as weighting etc., I personally think Dr. Ashby has enough data to convince me high FOC improves penetration. I think it's much easier to find an appropriate carbon shaft for high foc (and still make your target arrow weight) than it is aluminum...and I believe carbons recover faster from paradox making high FOC more viable with this material. Look at the weighting choices for carbons as options, not detriments. Another option: want to shoot a light arrow for 3d and heavier for game but don't want seperate arrows...tube em; can't do that with aluminum.

I don't agree with "the weights I want" type statements either: I'll bet I could build a carbon arrow (within reasonable range) within 10 grains of what you want your target weight to be. The sheer # of carbon arrows produced in weights from 4gr/in to 15gr/in cuts a wide swath. There is a carbon out there for everyone.

Straightness: Yes, aluminum are minutely more straight than carbon only shafts. But,  most carbons aren't far off: this is a common misconception regarding carbons. Most of the runout I have found comes from the ends of carbons. When cutting, try cutting equally from both ends...some of your runout will disappear. With this method, and using the Arrow Squaring Device on BOTH ends while building the arrow, I find them straighter by far than I can tell in shooting. With trad gear and 99% of the shooters out there, I think even the poor end of the spectrum of .006 is simply overkill (most of the better carbons I measured when I got curious came in around .003-4).

Aluminum certainly isn't dead and gone, for that matter I hope none of the arrow materials leave us; the more choices the better, imho. But purely based on "performance", I am convinced it's tied for second at best with wood. Choose wood or aluminum because you like them better....but I don't think you could prove they are superior in any fashion.

There, the gauntlet is down...and it's made of carbon  

[George D. Stout]

Okay Terry....who said aluminums were superior to carbons.  The tread is about not relegating aluminums to the grave as of yet 8^).  Some of us think they are every bit as good and probably better in some aspects....especially consistency from spine to spine.  Carbons are great arrows, but I'm not ready to throw everything else away.
I think I'm getting to like my cedar even better than all of them.

[JC]

George, show me a "good" cedar I can buy these days and I'd own some. I tried cedar again a few years ago and they were like kindlin...but was given some "old" ones that really were very fine arrows. I think there is something to the complaint I often hear that the cedar from days gone by was superior to today's supply. Whatcha think?

And I'll give you the straightness factor of aluminums...but if .003 difference is enough to make you choose them over carbons, you should never be shooting wood.  :p  

And I'll also give that most wood arrows are superior in one regard...I can't stand the smell of a broke carbon or aluminum   :rolleyes:

[Terry Green]

I hear ya George....

Joe...Compressed Maples is where its at.......knowhatimean Vern?

[last arrow]

Here is my thoughts and opinions on arrow shafts after 36 years of hunting with recurve bows ranging form 45 to 65 lbs.

Aluminum is great as long as you stay with a smaller diameter thick walled shaft. A 2020 Al makes for a very durable heavy hunting shaft that is hard to beat if it works with your bow.  If the wall thickness goes below a .016", Al shafts will bend and mushroom much to easily to be used for hunting in my opinion. With my current go to bow, a center cut high performance recurve, I need a stiffer shaft than a 2216 and 2219's are too stiff unless I use real heavy heads.  I find Al difficult to tune  and get consistent flight with heavy heads (greater than 175 grns).  I am unwilling to shoot a large diameter small thickness shaft to get the spine I need.

The performance of a tapered ceder or sitka arrow is hard to beat as they are forgiving and they are nearly as durable as aluminum.  However, it takes a lot of time to keep yourself supplied.   When my kids are older and I have more time, I will probably make and shoot tapered cedar or spruce with a hardwood foot for durability exclusively.  I have heard maple shafts are great, but were do you find them, I dont have time to make them.

I have only been shooting  carbons for about 2 years.  I have found the brands I have tried to be much more durable than wood and AL.  Unless you loose a lot of arrows, carbon is the most cost effective shaft.  Rumor has it that some brands of carbon shafts are poorly made and fragile but I have not had that experience.    I have found them easy to tune and to hit the desired arrow weight with a given head by verying shaft length and BH adapter weight.  I have just started expermenting with tapered carbon shafts and am finding they offer the shootablity benifits of tapered ceder with the durability benifits of carbon.   I will probably use them this year before making any long term commitments.

[jacobsladder]

George...i like the woodies also....cedar, sitka spruce, and laminated birch make some nice arrows..I do agree that aluminums are not ready for the dumpster.

[hawksnest]

Originally posted by George D. Stout:
hawksnest....I kinda' like my woods as well.  I was shooting some today:
 

Maybe it's an "old fart" thing with us George.
    :-) Bill

[hunt it]

It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks. Nothing wrong with the beer cans but carbon beats em all for performance, penetration and durability. Around hear a dozen of good xx78's cost over a hundred bucks and are well within a twenty dollar bill of any doz/carbon shafts (good ones). I think the big difference is for those buying thirty dollar/doz carbons at mallmart, they are junk compared to top o line carbons. When I bought my 75# longbow five years back I had three doz good carbons for it. I still have thirty three shafts left. Thats after many three D rounds and lots of hunting. I killed seven hogs last week using those shafts and only on the eighth hog did one get busted up. For me aluminum's for beer cans and carbons for good arras.

[hunt it]

George,

Please don't take the old dog thing personally. It's the old saying I'm refereing too.

[Dave Worden]

Careful, George.  If we make them too popular, Easton will bring back all the sizes and RAISE THE PRICE!!!!!  I'm probably OK though.  I've got a couple of 30-year old aluminums and quite a newer ones.  I just strip them, straighten them, and repaint/fletch them every other year or so and they're just like the Energizer Bunny.  At the rate I lose them I'm not likely to run out of the shafts even if I never buy another.  Did I mention I'm also cheap?