Carbon arrows

[MOstate]

Seeing that I am new to trad archery, I would like as much help as i can get. I shoot a Fred Bear Grizzly at #55 and maybe a tad over. The arrows I like are Carbon Express Terminator XP Select 4560 at 33 inches. They weigh around 470 grains with a 125 grain tip. Would this be enough for a #175 tops deer?

[NDTerminator]

That's 8.5 grains per pound of draw, so you should be fine.  Personally, I like 10 GPP or more. At 50#-55#, I shoot 550 grains.

Do you use 33" arrows because of a long draw?

At 55#,CX Terminator 4560's are good to go out to 30", after that the 6075's are recommended. I'm thinking at 33" your 4560's will be awfully light spined for your 55# draw weight.

Did you bare shaft them to see how they fly?...

[MOstate]

Honestly I have no idea what to bare shaft is. But I draw the arrow to 30 inches, so i guess so. But they fly well and hit hard.

[wtpops]

So is that 55# at your draw or is the bow stamped 55# @ 28"If this is the case then you are pulling about 60# or so.

Bare shafting: try striping the flethers of a shaft and shoot it WITH A FIELD POINT. If the bow is marked 55# @ 28" and you draw 30" and your arrow is a 45/60, 33" long, i bet the arrow will fly tail left all the way to the target.

[MOstate]

Yes the bow is stamped 55# @ 28". And if the arrow does fly like you suggest, should I move up in arrow weight AND point weight?

[NDTerminator]

If you are drawing an honest 30" with a 55#@28" bow, your actual draw weight is probably in the area of 59#-61#.

As you have them, you might as well continue bare shafting a CX 4560 with your chosen 125 grain point.  Remember you will need 3/4" plus longer than you draw for safety.

You know already know it spines weak at 33", so cut off an inch, rei-install the insert & point, and try it. If it doesn't fly straight to your POA (point of aim), remove the insert, cut of 1/4", re-install insert, and repeat.  It might straighten up & fly right at around 31", but probably not.  

If not, move to a CX 6075, start with a 33" arrow, and repeat.  I'm guessing a 6075 will tune for you around 32".

If you like alums, try a 2216, 2413, or on the heavier spined side maybe a 2219 or 2315, and do the same thing.  I will guess  you will find find your tune around 31"-32" with the lighter spined shafts.

I shoot both alum and carbon, but prefer alums as they are not as broadly spined as carbons (makes for easier tuning IMO) and much easier to build & work with.  The guys who prefer carbons do so mainly due to their toughness.

The heavier the point, the less spine your shaft has, BTW.  If you want to shoot a 33" 6075, you probably have to go to a 150 grain+ point to get a tune, for example...

Just as an example/FYI, all my bows are 50#-55# and I draw 28.5".  With 125 grain point/insert I shoot 30" 2117's or 2314's with all.  Both tune nicely at that length and duplicate POI (point of impact)  a 29.5" CX Terminator 4560 tunes out, but has a higher POI than the alums.  I can/do shoot 30" 2413's but they spine a smidge heavy. It's close enough that once fletched they shoot fine, particularly with broadheads.

Good luck and have fun with it...

[wtpops]

Just a little tip, form problems effect bear shafting so shoot your bear shaft a few times, before you make a ajustment, to get a clear pictuer of how it is fling. Also look at in air flight and not nock orintation after it hits target, some target materials came move the arrow around and give you a bad read.

[MOstate]

I did what you said to and the it struck the target with the nock high and to the left. I didn't cut any length off the arrow though. And since I would like to shoot a heavier arrow, should i just jump up to the 6075's?

[NDTerminator]

I suggested you continue to work with the 4560's because you have them. If you want more weight, then go with the 6075's, or better yet, try a 2216 alum...

[MOstate]

With your experience, would you recommend the carbons or alums? Because you probably have more knowledge about this subject. My maxium range is about 25 yards and a heavy, slow  hit is better than a light, fast miss.

[NDTerminator]

Both are good but I personally like alums best.  They are much easier to build & work with than carbons. With alums I don't have to add extra weight for my finished arrows to achieve my preferred 9-10 grains + per pound of draw weight (GPP).

CX Terminators aren't particularly heavy for carbons. Most carbons aren't, but some like the CX Heritage are designed heavier for use with Trad bows.

Many use brass inserts (available in 50 & 100 grain) or weight tubes with carbons to get their desired weight. When I used CX Terminator 4560's as my primary shafts, I used 50 grain brass inserts to get the weight up over 500 grains...

[MOstate]

So alums would be best for me? Because I'm 14 years old and making money comes in the summer time. And alums sound like they are just heavy enough as is. Plus, if I break an arrow, I don't really want to replace anything extra than just the arrow, point, and feathers.

[NDTerminator]

In Trad archery, there are many ways to get around the barn. The only person who can say what's best for you is you...

Now that we know your age & general situation, I think we can advise you a bit better.

Here's what I might suggest.  Rather than shooting off the shelf, go with a stick on rest such as a Bear Weatherest or T-300, about 1/2" above the shelf.  This will allow you to shoot arrows with vanes (much less expensive and more durable than feathers).  The elevated rest will allow you to shoot both vanesor feathers well.
The elevated rest also affords generally better arrow flight & more forgiving of arrow tune.  

Now pick up some vaned alums, probably 2117's cut to 31" will work.  You should be able to find
Quattros or even less expensive, Gamegetter II's, pretty reasonably priced with a little shopping.  Check out Cabelas online Bargain Cave, you might find a deal there.  I just picked up a half dozen GGII's (for stumping & targets) at the Bargain Cave in a nearby Cabelas for $17.00.

Also check the Classifieds here on Tradgang.  You'll find feather fletched arrows as well as raw shafts if you are into building your own.

BTW, don't shy away from carbons if that is what hits your switch. Their durability is beyond question, and they will generally outlast alums.  Any of them at 31" with a standard insert & 125 grain broadhead will do a job on deer sized critters from a 50# or better bow, without adding extra weight.  That plus you can buy individual vaned 31" CX 6075's at any Walmart, so you won't have to shell out for a full dozen if you don't have the cash.  Hit a Walmart next year when they closeout after hunting season, and you can buy CX's by the armfull for around $4-$5 each...

[Kingstaken]

I beleive the question was whether or not you could take a 175# deer with your Fred Bear 55+# recurve and 470gr arrow.
Simply answered yes.
Aluminum and carbons are all personal choices for each individual archer.
If that is the arrow you have and they fly good by this I mean are hitting the spot you are aiming at and you see no fish tailing of the arrow from behind, then stay with them.
No need to go out buying new arrows at this time. Take one step at a time.
At 14 years old save ya money.
As the arrows break as they will, you can replace them and try different types and maybe some day you'll like one more then others.

[The Whittler]

I agree with Kingstaken

[NDTerminator]

True enough gents, but I stand by my thoughts.  
We're hardly doing the young man or any game he attempts to kill this coming season by suggesting he shoot what are clearly underspined arrows just because he has them.

Whether or not it's visibly apparent, that arrow will either fishtail or as he has described, tail left going downrange, meaning inconsistent accuracy and wasted energy that he needs for penetration on game.

IMO, better to get set up correctly now for any number of good reasons...

[SteveB]

I also agree with kingstaken.

Go to the A & H archery site - they are sponsors.
Print out and study their info on tuning - bareshafting is covered there.

Also there is NOTHING about a lighter, faster arrow that will lead to missing over a slow heavy one. The opposite has been my experiance.

Good luck.

Steve

[NDTerminator]

I don't have any stuff long enough for him laying around, but if I did I would be inclined to send this young guy a couple sizes of test arrows...

[MOstate]

Thank you for all of your help. It has helped out greatly. I checked out Sipsey and their shafts they have are too short or too light. And I read bare shaft tuning at A & H and now I have a better understanding.
But I'm reading all of these articles and people are talking about spine size. What should I be looking for?
Im used to looking at arrows  for my wheel bow (27.5in, 362 grains, Beman ICS). So anything I'm looking at seems really heavy to me.

[NDTerminator]

8-10GPP is a nice balance between weight & speed.  You should be able to get in this weight range w/o having to add weight to your arrow. Heavier arrows tend to make for a more quiet shot, BTW.  

I might suggest checking your draw length for certain, if you haven't all ready done so. Draw one of your arrows to full draw, have someone mark it at the front of the riser, and measure your arrow's length to that mark.  That will be your draw length.  You need at least 3/4"-1" longer arrow than that for safety, particularly with broadheads.

Many if not most find their draw length with a trad bow to be shorter than with a compound. For example my draw with a compound is 28.5"-29" (even the one I shoot barebow/fingers), while my draw with with my recurves is 28"-28.5"...