Author Topic: asymmetrical limb tiller check  (Read 1515 times)

Offline LittleBen

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Re: asymmetrical limb tiller check
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2013, 10:53:00 AM »
Eric I think that bow is looking really good.

Jeff, also really like the look of that tri-lam. I'm working on a form now with a very similar profile I'm hoping to use for some boo backed bows and also maybe for a glass bow if I get the itch.

Offline Bowjunkie

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Re: asymmetrical limb tiller check
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2013, 09:16:00 PM »
Eric, I just saw some pictures of your stave that brings something to mind and thought I should mention it... I noticed an area in each limb that looked 'weak', so as I usually do before I give tillering advice, I looked to pictures of your bow unstrung, their 'starting line' before I judged them. How EACH limb bends, and appears as it's being drawn, is, and should always be, relative to IT'S unbraced profile. In other words, if they are different unstrung, those differences should still be detectable at brace, full draw, and anywhere in between. If an odd shaped, humpy limb is tillered to form a perfect arc, it does not have stresses distributed evenly along its length.

As I looked at your pictures, I saw both the one prior to ANY heat correction, with a big hump in one limb near the inner limb, and a big hump in the other more towards the outer limb... and the unbraced picture after the corrections, with much of those humps gone, but not all.

While I think the double image picture is a great tool for bows with limbs of same-profile, your bow is a good example of one which may not be the best candidate for its use, since your bow's limbs should NOT be tillered to the exact same shape... in order for each of them to have their stresses evenly distributed.

Does that make any sense?

Offline Bowjunkie

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Re: asymmetrical limb tiller check
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2013, 09:22:00 PM »
One more thing... though it might seem your bow is taking some set if compared to the picture of it fresh off the caul, I think it's actually some of those big humps trying to come back a little bit... which is hard to avoid. They were some big humps. Nothing to worry about... just saying.

Offline Bowjunkie

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Re: asymmetrical limb tiller check
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2013, 09:24:00 PM »
(Edit)double post.

This one was a mirror image of the other one  :)

Offline Echatham

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Re: asymmetrical limb tiller check
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2013, 07:04:00 AM »
Jeff it makes sense. thanks.  put about 30 shots through it yesterday.  feels good.  little light but i will get over it. its gonna be very quiet when its all finished and string silencers and all.  sorry no full draw pic yet, i can only play with bows when im all alone, and its hard to get a pic taken.  i will get one.

Offline Echatham

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Re: asymmetrical limb tiller check
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2013, 10:25:00 AM »


got a little over a hundred shots through it and tiller hasn't changed. verified the timing too. gonna start finishing now.

Offline Bowjunkie

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Re: asymmetrical limb tiller check
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2013, 11:02:00 AM »
Nice. She's sittin' good and square in your hand, so you must have your holds mimicked pretty close on the tree.

Good job, man!

Can't wait to see her all dolled up.

Offline John Scifres

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Re: asymmetrical limb tiller check
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2013, 04:02:00 PM »
Can you post an unbraced pic?  That lower limb is working a whole lot midlimb.  Is set concentrated there?
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Offline Bowjunkie

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Re: asymmetrical limb tiller check
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2013, 04:30:00 PM »
Eric, post a picture for John of that stave before you did any heat corrections please.... and an unbraced pic of it now too if you could.

Offline TimBoA

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Re: asymmetrical limb tiller check
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2013, 04:47:00 PM »
I was just re-reading Vol. 4 of TBB (page 135) and came across the part about using combed flax to regain lost weight, and thought of this bow.  If you do end up changing anything and lose weight, that might be worth looking into.  Sinew too, I suppose...hopefully you can avoid either though.  It's a great looking bow!

Online Roy from Pa

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Re: asymmetrical limb tiller check
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2013, 05:40:00 PM »
Pretty nice, Eric. You have come a long way in a short period of time... ^5

Offline Echatham

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Re: asymmetrical limb tiller check
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2013, 07:10:00 PM »


 

Offline Echatham

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Re: asymmetrical limb tiller check
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2013, 07:46:00 PM »
not sure how i feel about these different length limbs. probably going to go back to same length limbs on the next one.  thinking about trading my fedora R/D bow for a stash of staves.  my bow wood guy thinks he wants it.  going to ohio first week of Oct to hunt with him.  just don't have any interest in glass bows any more.

Offline John Scifres

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Re: asymmetrical limb tiller check
« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2013, 12:23:00 AM »
I don't look at it like having different length limbs.  I build bows from the fulcrum,  The upper limb and the lower limb start at the same point and they are even length,  There may be less wood bending in the lower limb but it is still the same length.

Eric, just keep making bows.  Lots of bows.  Of all different types.  Don't make your mind up just yet.

I'd hold off on getting rid of the glass bows.  If you liked 'em once you probably will again.  Let the puppy love with wood wear off before you go doing anything you might regret later.

There's tons of osage in Ohio.  Find someone who will let you cut a tree or two.
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Online Roy from Pa

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Re: asymmetrical limb tiller check
« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2013, 12:48:00 AM »
It's all good and it's all fun...

Unlike what John said, I love wood bows and I don't care for making glass bows. But hey, that's just me...

Offline Echatham

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Re: asymmetrical limb tiller check
« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2013, 06:34:00 AM »
John, i did like em once.... but i think it was just a stepping stone.  i bought my first ever traditional bow, a recurve, in November last year.  sold my brand new compound a month or so after. then i bought a longbow and loved it more than the recurve. recurve has been on the shelf since then.  then under Roy's guidance i built my first wood bow.  theres no going back for me.  i know theres plenty of osage in ohio, and i already talked to Matt about cutting a tree, and he said we could, but im probably gonna be to busy hunting.

Offline Bowjunkie

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Re: asymmetrical limb tiller check
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2013, 07:30:00 AM »
Eric, I think you should make a symmetrical bow now and use your new tillering tree methods and understanding to build a bow with synchronized limbs and then make some comparisons between the design styles with regard to static and dynamic balance and shifting fulcrums. Some new things will try to reveal themselves.

I look at limb length like John does... "I don't look at it like having different length limbs. I build bows from the fulcrum, The upper limb and the lower limb start at the same point and they are even length, There may be less wood bending in the lower limb but it is still the same length." That was well put.

I dont know where youre at in Ohio, but the places I cut osage in Ohio grew excellent stuff, wayyyyyyyy nicer than anything I've ever seen here in Pa just two hours away.

John, did you take notice of the unstrung profiles of his bow? And do you see why I wouldn't advocate tillering them to the same exact drawn profile?

Offline Echatham

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Re: asymmetrical limb tiller check
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2013, 07:42:00 AM »
well im going to stay a week with Matt Fout in Waverly.  you guys might even know him. goes by Whitefeather on the LW.  both my staves came from him, and the next probably will too.  Jeff next one is going to be be symmetrical and i will definitely pay attention.  hey this is off topic, but while i got all you pros tuned in,  i always want my bows to be straight after shooting in, no string follow.... just something i wanted to be able to do and haven't pulled it off yet.  is there some guideline you guys use when heating in reflex to end up with a straight bow?  for example my kid's bow here:
 

thats hickory and only about 20@20", but it ended up straight and stayed that way after several hundred shots... i want my bow to do the same!    :banghead:

Offline Bowjunkie

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Re: asymmetrical limb tiller check
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2013, 10:27:00 AM »
Eric, building a bow that stands straight after being shot-in isn't as simple as heating in the right amount of reflex. It often helps, but there are a bunch of other factors too that need to work together to make it happen. You can reflex the livin' snot out of a stave, but if too many other factors work against it, it may follow the string in spite of your efforts. Some of these other factors include, but are not limited to...

Moisture content of the wood: If it's not adequately dried, it's gonna take unnecessary set... even if everything else is done well. Here I'd like to add proper care of and storage of wood after being cut. Whitewood especially, can degrade quickly after being felled if not properly cared for, which can lead to unavoidable set.

Design specifics: If it's too narrow, thick, or working limbs are too short and such relative to draw weight, draw length, abilities of the wood, etc... it's going to take additional set.

Inherent quality of the individual PIECE of wood: If, for instance, you have two pieces of osage, and make identical bows with them, with the only difference being ratio of early to late growth in the annual rings, the bow with the higher percentage of more dense, clearly defined late growth is going to take less set than one with more early growth saturation and less dense late wood.

Tillering: If each inch of limb isn't contributing equally to the work being done... if some is working harder than others, the overworked areas will be under more compression and tension which can cause set. Also in regards to tillering, if a bow reveals an area that is too stiff or too weak during tillering and you don't address it, but draw the bow farther, you're causing unnecessary set in the areas that are forced to work too hard. ....So it stands to reason, the more your eye for tillering develops with experience, the sooner you'll recognize problem areas, get them corrected, and the less set your bows will take in the end.

Wood species vary in their ability to deal with tension and compression stresses, but if designed accordingly, many of them can be made to take little if any set in a finished bow. The less they're able to deal with this stress, the wider, thinner, and longer they have to be to accomodate certain design, draw length, and draw weight requisites.

That's why I prefer osage and yew. Generally, I like short, narrow, deeply radiused bows, of 60+ pounds, and osage and yew can deliver the goods if I do my part.

I don't mind my bows taking a little bit of set... that way I know I'm not overbuilding them.

Keep in mind during these discussions that 'set' and 'string follow' aren't synonomous. You can induce 4" of reflex into a stave and if it stands perfectly straight after shooting-in, it took 4" of set, but has no string follow.... so you still could have done things differently, if you wanted, to minimize the amount of set it took.

Our ability to coordinate and balance all the factors involved in making wooden bows that are neither overbuilt or overstressed is dependant on, and develops with, the skills and understanding gleaned through attentive, inquisitive, experience.

Offline Echatham

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Re: asymmetrical limb tiller check
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2013, 10:56:00 AM »
do you mean to say that theres more to this than tillering?!     :biglaugh:    :laughing:    just kidding i know theres alot to it... more than i understand yet and maybe never will.  but i do learn alot from every bow and my mind is on the next one as the finish dries on the current one.  you know what i can't understand... the guys that come on here and build one bow and disappear.  how do you not get addicted to this?  I know its not for everyone i guess.

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