My Hill Style Bow - Complete - Pics Pg. 2

[NYArrow]

So after what seems an eternity I finally got her all glued up....of course getting to this point took  a great deal of reading and building. (form and hot box) None the less, here she is out of the oven. After a bit of searching I couldn't seem to find a good post on how some of the fellow trad gangers layout their Hill style risers. Thanks to a big help from Bjansen I was emailed a riser template. But this really just helped layout the fades.

I need some guidance on laying out the riser dimensions. ie. riser width, distance from center to begin shoulder, shoulder to end of fades ....etc. (essentially how you would stencil the profile of the riser on the back of the bow before cutting out)

Right now the bow is 68"L, 1.5" wide with a .45 stack and .005 of taper. Black Glass, Brown A Wood and Black A Wood. The plan was to be 1 1/4" at fades to 1/2" tips. I'm just not certain on the layout between the upper and lower fades.  

Also keep in mind I don't have  drum sander. Simply a bandsaw and 4x36 belt sander. So narrowing the overall width may be fun!

   

     

[MoeM]

As I see you chose purple heart; I really love this **** for accents and smaller risers e.g.
   my purple rain
The profile/measurement depends heavily on how you placed the center; I usually go with symmetric 4" handle on the belly and same limblengts.
So the shelf is 2" above center.
From the back the risers width is same as fadewidth over the whole length and then fully pyramidal to the tips.
Hope this helps you out, I`m in a little hurry...

[NYArrow]

MoeM - Thanks. I was referencing Dick Wightmans page here in regards to layout. I guess I just assumed there was some kind of profile taper from handle to fades as shown on his site. Also the wood is actually bubinga, but it does look a lot like purple heart in the pic.

 http://dickwightman.com/archeryactivity/bowbuilding/tgbow-2/swapbow-2.html  (midway down)

Thanks again!

[onemississipp]

He runs straight taper from fades to tips.

What length is your riser?

What weight you going for?

[jsweka]

Like Moe said, 4" handle and shelf  1 3/4" - 2" above center.  Your shelf should be cut in to about 1/8" out from center.  I've never measured the length of my site window, just eyeballed it till it looked good, but definitely leave a couple inches of the fade are full width.

I also make mine 1 1/4" wide at the fades, but the width decreases through the handle area.  How much it decreases, I don't know.  Enough that it feels good in my hand.  I use a rasp and a bit of elbow grease for all riser work.

Another thing you might want to do is really round over the edges on the back of the bow.  Some folks leave them pretty square, but I think it looks and feels better with them rounded over really good.  Don't worry, it won't compromise the integrity of the bow.

Here's a good pic of one of mine that might help with my above explanation of how I do things. Bottom line is just make it feel good to your hand.

I don't know that there is any hard and fast rules for a "Hill Style" bow other than not having any r/d.  Just look at the variation in styles of the builders for Howard Hill Archery over the years.


 

 

[NYArrow]

John,

Thanks. That seems to be the consensus. I'm not sure why I assumed there was some sort of taper from the fades into mid handle area. I guess just looking at most Hill style bows the handle seem to be thinner than the fades and this taper is strictly done by hand / eye. Now it's time to pull the trigger and cut out the profile. I hope to have her bending by the end of the week!

[MoeM]

...
I also make mine 1 1/4" wide at the fades, but the width decreases through the handle area.  How much it decreases, I don't know.  Enough that it feels good in my hand.   [/QB]

Ahm this sounds like "taper" from fades to handle- doesn`t it?

[LittleBen]

I second makign it however feels/looks right from holding the grip, lookign at pics of bows you like, and looking at your bow.

Better to have a bow that feels/shoots well for you than have one thats certified by the Howard Hill brain police.

[bigbob2]

I second what John and MoeM have said. Some HH style grips are simply parallel through their length, some are waist tapered [ narrower at center] and some have a 'palm swell' which when looking down on riser have a prominent swell at center and a valley either side . also called a locator grip. Some people prefer this as it gives a definite location for the hand to 'fit' the riser and not hunt about seeking the 'right' spot. In the end its all about what is the most comfortable for you and your grip style ie low wrist , high wrist etc.Go slow and check often when removing wood for the grip and ll will be fine.

[NYArrow]

After some thought - I reckoned that updating this post as I progress through the stages of my first glass bow would enable me to receive the valuable input from my fellow trad ganger's. It's even possible someone may learn or reference it down the road, so why not?
Up to this point I have created a form per bjansen's air hose form build along here:
 
  http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=004633#000000  

My forms differed in a few minor areas, but the most significant being the backset. My form is perfectly flat, where as his was built with 1" or so backset.

I also built a heat box. My box is simply 2x4's I ripped in half and then framed up a box to accommodate the 70" form and 76" air hose. I then wrapped the form in the foil covered bubble wrap found at many of the big box stores. My heat source is (4) 150 to 200 watt rough service bulbs. (rough service is nice as they are more durable and can take a few bumps) My lights are evenly spaced on the bottom of the form, wired parallel and use a receptacle plug that I can plug into any extension cord. It maintains 160f temps. Oh yeah, my top is two layers of the foil backed insulation with a piece of plywood on top. I even add some 2x8's or whatever may be laying around to add weight to the top and help reduce heat loss from my heat box.
Here is a couple of pics of my heat box:

  [/url] [/IMG]  
This pic is of my form with the heat box in the background.

  [/url] [/IMG]  
   
(the pic shows only 3 bulbs, after testing I found I had to add a fourth bulb. Also in the far end I create a hole just big enough for the air hose valve to poke through. This enables me to check pressures while the bow is baking)

[NYArrow]

As of now this is where I am -
My bow is out of the oven. I cooked it for 7hrs at 160f. I let the bow sit overnight in the form and went to work the next morning. Of course the first thing was to remove bow snot. Here is what it looked like first:
  [/url] [/IMG]

Afte some sanding and filing the riser was unveiled and now she looks like this
  [/url] [/IMG]

The excess epoxy really makes it hard to work on. It's sharp and tough - It took me about 2 hours to get it all cleaned up. But finally I was able to and thus have a nice clean and square surface to layout my profile. After some debate and discussion I layed out the bow by - 1st finding the centerline. This was done via a string and weight.

From there I was able to layout the rest of the bow as follows: 1 1/4" width (back) was carried out to 3/4" past the fades. From 3/4" past the fades I did a straight taper from 1 1/4" down to 1/2" tips. Overall based on my heavy stack I may thin her down to 1 1/8"wide to 3/8" tips. Time will tell when I get her bending. The plan from day 1 was to trap the back so my lam calculations may seem a bit high for most.  

The tips may end up thinner but for now this is where they are. Once laid out and triple checked!!! I took her to the bandsaw and cut to within 1/16" or so of my line. This gives me some wiggle room to remove tool marks and make adjustments if needed.

As of now this is what she looks like:

Back Profile
  [/url] [/IMG]


Side Profile
  [/url] [/IMG]

Belly Profile
  [/url] [/IMG]

Another thing that some may be wondering (if you've made it this far in reading) is the stack. It was mentioned above but just in case here is the plan and materials used:

67" bow - 45lbs @ 28"
Stack is .450 with a taper of .005

3 Brown Super Action .070 taper lams with .001 taper ea.

2 Gray Super Action .070 taper lams with .001 taper ea.

2 Black Fiber glass lams (back and belly) ULS Bo Tuff E Glass .050    

Also riser is 14" bubinga and hickory

Tips and overlays I have yet to decide on - plenty of time for that later.

[bigbob2]

I make mine 1 1/8 at fades down to 1/2'' at nock groove.If you come out over weight you can easily go down to same width.

[NYArrow]

Thanks Bob. I was told the same thing by several folks, but being a newb I'm being conservative and leaving some wood on for safety sake. I'm sure in the end, I will be removing more wood though.

[NYArrow]

So after cutting out the profile, I worked on sanding the bow down to my lines that were drawn on the masking tape during layout. With this done, the bow was ready to put on some tips and start bending. Here I glued on Hickory and Black phenolic for tips.

Lesson learned here - When you glue them on you must rough up the glass or the glue will not hold! When I first started to string the bow the upper tip slid. This was actually ok with me because I was able to really thin down the tip edges. After sanding off the old glue, rough everything up and wiping down with denatured alcohol I was ready to use my 5 min. epoxy again.

  [/url] [/IMG]

After the tips had set for a while (under a semi warm light, as my basement is pretty cool) I was able to rough out the shelf and sight window with my bandsaw. This took some careful work and was really rough on my bandsaw. I cut most of it out to within 1/16 of my line, which was cut to center. After that I finished up with my rasp's and files. There is still a lot of handle and shelf work to be done but here it is all roughed out.

  [/url] [/IMG]

Next step was to string her up. First I did a low brace of like 4", and once things were copacetic I worked here out to full draw. (slowly that is, checking string and limb alignment every 4" or so)

  [/url] [/IMG]

Full Draw. Just fyi the stand the bow is on is not level. After this pic, I leveled the stand and check the tiller. the upper limb is bending about 3/8" more. I would like the weaken the bottom limb so I end up with about a 1/8" to 3/16" positive tiller. Although this is for a friend that has never shot trad archery and perhaps keeping it tiller for 3 under is not a bad idea....I'll think on that one.

  [/url] [/IMG]

She weighs 57lbs @ 28" right now. I'm hoping to settle around 50lbs, maybe a bit less. As stated before I plan on trapping the back, and that coupled with my finish sanding should dial in the weight to just about perfect.

[NYArrow]

Here she is at 6.5" brace and a bit more handle work. Still much to do, but getting there. I wanted to shoot it a few times before going much further. Due to my poor bowyer skills, I have learned that it's wise to shoot 40 or so arrows before going through the whole finishing process. It's pretty upsetting to have a failure after finishing everything...so this way I can ensure the bow will hold up to the stress of shooting and is worthy of completing the time consuming finishing touches.
  [/url] [/IMG]

[bigbob2]

Looking good NY! so long as you work the upper part of the shelf down into more of a taper rather than abrupt finish. IMO waiting for the final pictures, but well done    

[NYArrow]

Thanks for the pointer bigbob. I didnt even notice that lil detail until you memtioned it. I used a small mixing cup to trace an arc for my sight window. Now that i look at it, the arc is a bit abrupt. Ill fix her up in the next few days.

[bjansen]

Nice job...looking very good!

[NYArrow]

Thanks Brad! Your build alongs and pm's have been critical to my progress. Your help is greatly appreciated!

[NYArrow]

Finally getting near the end! I shot her about 30 more times today and wow, she is really smooth. Early out of the form the lower limb was about 1/2" stronger, which resulted in a nice amount of handshock. Now I have her tilled to 1/16" positive and 47lbs @ 28". The weight is exactly what I wanted and the handshock has disappeared.

To get to this point it did take a bit of sanding and trapping but none the less here she is. The bow is exceptionally quiet and really throws an arrow. It's a great feeling to have the 1st glass bow turn out so well. The new owner wants to name her "Lucille" after the beautiful lady from Cool Hand Luke.

On a side note: My stack calculation was a bit high in comparison to most on this forum. After discussing my plans with one particularly respected bowyer, I decided to go with his stack recommendation with plans of trapping more than most bowyers do on glass bows.

The 5 layers of wood combined with considerable trapping have made for an incredibly smooth bow. However getting from 57# to 47# I did learn a few things.

1. Masking tape accounts for about 2#'s of pull

2. Every 10 passes on my 4x36 belt sander (with belt raised in vertical position, yet holding bow horizontal) I reduced weight by 2#. That is 10 passes for upper and lower limb side profile, not back or belly.


Here are some pics of the bow with much of the sanding and file work complete.

  [/url] [/IMG]

  [/url] [/IMG]  

I have  a few blemishes to work out and finish sanding from my current 220 up to 600. Also I have to do some penmanship on the bow and complete with a finish.

I'm thinking idian ink for the writing and tru oil or helmsman spar for the finish.....