scars bow swap blog

[scars]

Originally posted by halfseminole:
Yeah, I shoot thumb or pinch style, depending on my arthritis that day.  Thumbring is easier on my hands, but I haven't found one I like after losing my bone one in the move out here.  Thought about making a rawhide one, as all the bone I have now is too small, and I don't have a horn of the right size I can sacrifice.  It might have to be PVC for me, as well.  I have very long fingers, so I had one I made that I really liked, as all the others were short.  I learned long ago how to shoot with the shelf "normal" and not fling arrows everywhere, so there's that.  My horsebow had a bent PVC rest on either side for convenience.  Think I want a new one of those.

I think you were standing at the bottom of some stairs with it drawn. No, I remember you had it drawn your arrow point nock point and elbow lined up straight and looked good.

My leather was the first I still have it. The brass one never fit right use to dig into my thumb. So I copied the style of the brass ring onto some 1" PVC cut the nock into the ring base and split the top of the ring removed about 1/4" then heated it up with the heat gun and shape fit it to wrap around my thumb. It does not dig into the top of my thumb and I can shoot it all day.

[scars]

Looks like I got some good clean lines and the tips are parallel.

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Depending on how I feel after work tomorrow I will get these cleaned up, cut off what is not needed on the siyahs. Then decide on double fishtail or single.

[fujimo]

scars you have any pictures of that pvc thumbring, would love to make one myself.
thanks
wayne

[scars]

Originally posted by fujimo:
scars you have any pictures of that pvc thumbring, would love to make one myself.
thanks
wayne

Here you go fujimo:
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First pic shows nock
the rest are just perspective
I choose my nock to be on the back edge it's at the meat of my thumb and I guess foreknuckle I get to feel my arrows nock and with the fore finger I feel the fletches. At release I just relax thumb, fore finger and middle finger. The ring finger and pinky are holding a pretend eggshell without breaking it in the base of my palm.

[scars]

Once sanded the tips really look good. I drew my lines cut the side profile I think will work with this blank. The glue line on the handle is almost invisible however it is really bulky. The blank and handles thickness is 2 1/4" ripped half the glue off it is now 1 3/4" thick. I rasp a facet on the tips on both side all the way to the fishtail. Will do more shaping once glued up and backing is applied.

I am almost regretting not making this little bow a hornbow  with a sinew back. There is no twist, I have not had to do one thing to correct anything. She is almost putting herself together.

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The tips look long I like to leave them that way until strung. I will adjust when I start tiller and shooting it in.

[MoeM]

Pretty cool project scars! I`m excited to see how this all wood version works!
 Will you glue in some more re- or deflex when adding the back and belly round the core? You could get some perry in it when you do the glue ups one after another. Maybe this would really help the woods to stand the enormous forces in the short working areas by distribution tension better through limbs thickness!

Ed. I like the idear of the two-piece siyah! Another alternative to plywood or natural grown pieces...

[halfseminole]

That is absolutely beautiful.  I wish I had the money to buy a bow from you.  Sadly, that probably won't ever be the case.  On the slim chance I get it, you're pretty much the list of who I'd want to buy from.

By the way, this is the picture you mentioned.  PVC with red oak siyahs.

 

Sorry to hijack your thread.  You were trying to recall the pic, so I reposted it.

[scars]

Moe,
I don't know what it is about these little bows but everything about them fascinates me. Once I have one to brace I run my hands over them like long lost friends that have finally found there way home. Sad I know.

[scars]

Also Moe,
I am worried about the forces on this one. If I do anything it will have deflex. Sam Harpers bamboo recurve has come to mind. Perry's reflex is for stock that has some good thickness to work with. And I believe that for a trad swap bow the longevity of the bow should be one of the factors for consideration. More than likely I will not put any r/d. Pats bow has none and although I have increased the angle of the siyah. I think it is still within the parameters of his style. So I will maintain as much as needed to keep it that way. To be practical this is just a very short hickory backed ipe bow with levers added, all said and done it should work out nicely.

[scars]

Originally posted by halfseminole:
That is absolutely beautiful.  I wish I had the money to buy a bow from you.  Sadly, that probably won't ever be the case.  On the slim chance I get it, you're pretty much the list of who I'd want to buy from.

By the way, this is the picture you mentioned.  PVC with red oak siyahs.

 

Sorry to hijack your thread.  You were trying to recall the pic, so I reposted it.

Yep that's the one I was thinking of. To be honest, with your draw length I think a glass backed self or 2 wood lam bow would be the most economical choice for you. Horse bows of the older styles like Crimean-tatar, The older mongol style or Magyar with the long straighter tips. The Korean bow could work green bamboo  to make the core.

2 pieces of belly horn 26" to 30" is hard to find  unless it was gemsbok and then to obtain a good stave with no knots.

I've made 30 to 40 bows and broke 2-3 times that many. And still don't have the skill or knowledge to feel justified in selling bows. I give them away. The ones that broke I burn unless they had interesting breaks or I keep the ones that I have not figured out why they broke.

 I am rambling on, But I have been thinking, And its all your fault. When I first seen that photo I thought. If you took some pvc pipe 3 or 4". Rip a couple of strips at say 1 1/2 " wide flatten it with heat,  would it make a good belly or backing? Some day I am going to find out. If it does I'll let you know. But it will have to wait for now.  I have 2 bows for friends  a bow for my brother and at work a coworker has a sisters son that shoot his bow I made for him and would like me to make one for him.

Well it looks like I'm not going to glue any parts up on this swap bow tonite.

And no you did not hijack this thread. Your comments always make me think I enjoy that.

[MoeM]

Hey scars, I didn`t think about the perry with thicker stock to work down but I remember about another way he wrote about to bring the tension off the surfaces.
If I remember right it was about doing two glue ups- the first giving a form against the final.
E.g. glueing deflex and then bring in reflex or even make it straight with the final layer.

[Cyclic-Rivers]

The bow is looking Great!

[scars]

Yes Moe I understand what you are talking about. But this bow lacks some criteria for some of Dans inspiration. The tips will have to much mass, granted the reflex would still assist in the active limbs and using hickory for the backing would be a positive. However If you look at the mock up of the side profile and if I cut off half of the ipe tips cut my nocks 25,4mm. I would still be 5 inches in front of the back of the bow. To get it to brace 6.5 to 7 inches more, then draw pull of say 27" that is 39 inches of stored and possible released energy.
 Now take into account even Dan Perry will say that over time his technique will weaken the lower limb.
 So if I put two inches of reflex into 2 layers of Lams Perry style then I glue my hickory backing on at a neutral ( or unstressed state). That would increase my potential energy to 41".
From the nock to the kasan eye I will have 13 inches of static tips and my active limb or sal is 15 inches. 15 inches to create 41 inches of potential? I think it would blow up.
Now lets look at keeping every thing the same except when we get to the glue up of the backing we induce 4 inches of deflex. I can see it reducing tension at draw but I also see it increasing tip speed at release.
But I also see another problem arising. With putting perry into two lams in reflex then putting deflex into it. We are inducing perry in reverse. Like Adam Karpowicxz puts a maple staves crown in reverse to make his ottomans. Now back to the top if this message I mentioned that Perry admits that his procedure causes lower limb stress over time. I can see this bow surviving the tillering process and the shoot in of 200 arrows but what then? I see the lower limb breaking after I send it to Mr ****. Not a pleasant visual. If I was making it for me I would chance it. Wood is 1% to 1.5% of reaching it break point. horn 4% Glass I don't know but I believe it is more. I am going to glue a safty backing on to this bow on top of the working backing, because I feel that I will be cutting it close on the woods percentage.
 After thinking about Perry reflex for the last couple of days. You are making want to build a bow with with it. A four hundred yard shooter would be a nice achievement.

[scars]

Originally posted by Cyclic-Rivers:
The bow is looking Great!

Thanks, Cyclic

I just glued the siyahs to the limbs tonight. Tomorrow I will glue the backing on. Since I am using a two piece backing I will also put the overlay on the backing.

[KellyG]

Scars I have wondered about cutting and flattening PVC my self. If it works call it poor mans horn.

[wood carver 2]

Can PVC be glued to wood?
Been thinking about that and I can't come up with an answer.
Dave.

[scars]

To Kelly and wood carver 2

Yes it can. I used it on a couple of tips. Also mellame is a vinyl product used on shelving stock and edges. Same lam glues work on both, unibond 800.
I have tried abs pipe as a backing and frp both failed. The abs pipe has a closed cell structure and it was fretting even as a backing. The FRP had no elasticity pulled itself apart. I have never tried either as a belly horn substitute. I think the ABS would just collapse not even crush. Cell structure not even compatible. The FRP would just fret and turn to powder it has a very dry type of plastic composition. The pvc pipe does have some good promise, as a pipe bow material it does work. At the moment I have some pvc  scedule 20. One of these day I'll try it out and let you know. We will never know till it is tested.

[scars]

The fish tail joints looked good after last nights glue up. Moe has really got me thinking about introducing some Perry reflex. All day long at work that's all I have been running through my head. The different things that could go wrong, what I could do to reduce that possibility. And so on and so forth. So tonight I cleaned up the joints reduced the width. Then started to flex the limbs to see how much resistance there was in each limb. Looked at it some more the decided to put it on the long line. I worked it for maybe 50 to 60 pulls eye balled it down the limbs, checking for set, no set. Now you gotta note I'm doing this with no backing. So I am doing this as gentle as possible. I decide to go to a 3" brace  and it holds I look down the belly the string holds true down the center. I work it another 50- 60 pulls.
So that's where I am at. At the moment with no tillering bandsaw kerf ridges and all, at the fades I have 3 3/16" on one limb and 3 5/16" on the other. There is about a 1/2" of difference in tip levels and the arcs are real close to even stresses. I am starting to lean towards adding one inch to one and a half inches of reflex at backing glue up. So I am at a stand still till I figure out where to go from here. More tomorrow.

[Pheonixarcher]

This has been very interesting to follow so far! I look forward to seeing the results and hearing your conclusion to this build. Thanks for taking us along.

[MoeM]

Sorry scars- didn`t intend to cause you headache!
(and I don`t want to lead you on a wrong track)
Can`t wait to see more pics....