What bow needs fade-outs??? (Update!)

[RedStag5728]

Ok this is making a joke of what I just figured out as my first rookie bow making mistake. So on my hickory self-bow I am working on, I measured the center point for a 68" Tip to Tip bow (66" NTN); so 34", and drew the lines for a 4" handle (2" on each side of the center-line). And guess what? I forgot the fade lines!            

I've already got the end of the handle (what I denoted as the fades) to 2" width and taper to 1/2" tips! I have yet to get the thickness profile.  

I originally wanted a stiff handle design pyramid hickory self-bow but I fear this is not going to be the result. What can I do to salvage this mistake?  

Here's a picture to prove my idiocy!

     

[nashoba]

If you want to try and save it you could always try gluing a riser/over lay on the belly, won't  be a true self bow but you still might make a shooter out of it. Good luck.

[BCWV]

I have yet to get the thickness profile.  

     [/QB][/QUOTE]


 Do you still have the thickness you need at the fade area? If so I would just go on about my business, mark out my desired fade length and keep on building. Unless I'm missing something.

[Roy from Pa]

I don't really see a problem. The taper from top and bottom of handle out another 2 inches is so minute it won't matter. A 2" wide hickory bow at the handle is a lot of wood. Your handle will be a tad narrower with the cut you have in it now, but I would make a bow out of it...

[George Tsoukalas]

How thick is the handle area?

[RedStag5728]

Sorry I forgot to add that detail. The handle width in the center is 1.5" wide. The thickness of the stave is around 2" from end to end.

Ok I was afraid that the taper would mess things up.   Glad to hear my rookie mistake is not too detrimental with what I was planning. Just slightly narrower fades then what I was going for but as long as you guys think it'll be fine then I am happy.

As far as thickness should I go with a parallel thickness with taper from the handle wood, or a slight taper from fades to nocks?

[bubby]

if it is a pyramid profile go with an even taper from fades to tips I use 1/2" to start and tiller from there. I think pyramid is the way to go especially on the first couple bows, the grip area only has to be 1" at the ends and 1 1/4" in the middle least ways that is how I do it, and if you need more thickness in the handle when all is done you can build it up with leather or cork and shape to fit

[RedStag5728]

Thanks bubby, and might I say you did an excellent job on your rawhide backed buckthorn! Are you saying 1" at the fades taper to 1/2" thick at nocks?

[Eric Krewson]

Here is how I do it and the same will fit easily on your bow;

I like bulbous handles so I leave a little more width in the center. My formula is a 1 1/4" circle in the center, 1" circles at the ends of the 4" handle section and out 2 3/4" I draw my fadeout full limb width circle.

     

 I know you all are thinking "2 3/4" fades, what's up with that? I start my fades that long for a purpose, as I shape the limbs and get the fadeout area working the fades shorten a bit. The extra length keeps slope of my fades from ending up too abrupt.

[George Tsoukalas]

Looks like you have plenty of handle shaping room. I like handles to be 1,25 in wide and 1.5 inches thick.

I never shape handles until the stave has reached full draw. I don;t want to waste time if it pops but more importantly, I can shape the handle accordingly to track the string better. I also leave the nocks a good inch wide until full draw for the same reason. I work a lot of character staves. I will heat but only as a last resort.
 http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/traditionalshoots.html

Jawge

[Eric Krewson]

George has a valid point about not putting time in a bow that may or may not make it.

I do it a little differently. I completely shape my handle as soon as I get on the short string. Wood removal, especially in the fades will affect poundage. I have also changed a badly tracking string to a perfect, down the center string by shaping the handle perfectly even side to side, especially in the sloping area of the fades.

[RedStag5728]

Thanks fellas, I just roughly laid out the handle and crudely used a rasp to get it to the lines. I am on the safe side and am leaving more wood than necessary for everything.

My next thing is getting the thickness to snuff and letting the stave dry out (it's at 12% MC) before tillering. I am not sure about what I want for a handle yet, my first one that broke had a locator handle with a sight shelf. I think for this bow I might go with a simple handle and to wrap it with deer buckskin, and have a wrapped shelf so to speak, such as using something to wedge a shelf underneath the wrapping.

But gotta make sure this stave survives the journey, and have it's life literally in my hands depending on if I make any more stupid mistakes!      

[RedStag5728]

*~*UPDATE 2/20/2015*~*

Hey guys here's an update on the stave! And here's a link to where this bow began!

 http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=011486;p=1

So awhile back I re-drew the fade lines they are 2" off each side of the handle, and I measured what the width of the stave is at those marks and she is 1 and 25/32th inches (or a big 3/4) wide. tapered to 1/2" tips.

     

Thickness I got to snuff and actually started working on with the long string and the EKG (Eric Krewson Gizmo)            

And here's the results:

Unbraced:

     

Pulled to 12" (32 pounds according to my bow scale):

     

And I felt confident to pull it to 18" as at 12" they looked identical, however you'll notice my right limb is much stronger than the left (47 pounds according to scale):

     

I wanna know how my progress is, with the gizmo, it's showing still thick at my problem area which is a big knot mid-limb off to one side, for which I have now carved out due to the thickness taper to be snuff as well as the dead wood inside the knot. I left it thick to maybe try and save it, but I'll leave it to the gurus for that judgement (did I mess up with the knot?)

     

Here's another small knot in the other limb which I feel confident will survive:

     

So my last question is, should I go ahead and move to the short string yet? or stay on the long string pull it to 18" each time with the gizmo until they are both bending evenly and then go to the short string. And how about the fades do I give them even scrapes along with the limbs?

My routine with the gizmo is mark lines, scrape off the lines with 10 strokes of the scraper (scraping with draw knife) and then 10 strokes down the entire limb.

Just would like to know where I stand and how to proceed further. And with that knot hole, should I leave it like it is throughout the bow's life (if it lives) or should I fill it in with a mixture of glue, wood shavings and dust (from the stave).

Sorry for all the questions but this is my second bow to work on after my first one broke and I had guidance on the first.

Oh yes, and the bow I plan on making is going to be 50# at 28"

Thanks,

Randy

[John Scifres]

You are still way heavy.  I would take an even amount of rasps (or scrapes) off each limb and then bend it to 18" again.  You might want to take a few more off the right limb but it's not too bad.  Just make sure you are being very precise in wood removal and not taking too much off a particular point. I usually mark a spot like that know with the word "NO" on the belly and avoid it until the final tillering stage.

Get it closer to 40# at 20" before you string it up.

[RedStag5728]

Thanks for the reply John. I worked on it for 4 hours today before giving in to the cold; was snowing today with a high of only 28 and the shop has no heat.

I measured with my calipers and found the fade area on that right limb (where the big knot is) was not exactly to my line of 5/8" so I perfected that as well as re-tapered the rest of the limb accordingly. With the knots I just left some extra wood around them as to leave a slight swell when viewed from the side. I'll work on those later.

I started to pull it to 18" with the gizmo and reduce the wood down. Will continue on it tomorrow as the high they are calling for is in the mid 50s so that will be a relief, and a good day for some time in the shop.

When I do remove wood I make sure I blend it into the rest of the limb.

Did you ever find out why your self-bow blew on final shoot in?

[John Scifres]

I think it was Satan.  He's a bowbreaking A-hole  

[Sockrsblur]

I'm enjoying your questions and build Randy.
You might wanna consider a cross over the top of your tiller tree...

 

I found this great example on the internet. You know to keep satan from breaking your stave!
   

[RedStag5728]

Oh lord, well then keep me and the bow in your prayers!          

I got back out to the shop today and was working on 'er. Started bending to 18" and using the EKG on her and I've got it bending right in all the areas of the limb except a 8" area from the fades to mid-limb, in both limbs. I even worked on those knots a little bit and got them down to just a few rings around them (about 4), the rings in this hickory are tight.

Oh and the little hole where I carved the knot out is nice and flat with the rest of the belly so that gives me some hope!  

I read in TBBI on tillering that if the tree built extra support on the back of the bow you don't need to worry about leaving extra wood on the belly. And in my limb there is a heck of a swell on the back right on that big knot, but just in case for now I'm going to leave a little wood on the belly side too.

Other than the stiff area where the knots are, both limbs are looking great! I'll keep you guys posted. I'm taking a break now after a few hours of shoveling yesterday's 5" of snow and 4 hours in the shop scraping away, I'm whooped lol. I'll get a few more hours in the shop in a little bit.

[John Scifres]

Um, hate to say it but that's my setup  

Sometimes the answer to a prayer is "No".  But I will say that I wasn't using the tree when it blew.

[RedStag5728]

Haha, I thought that image looked familiar!

Another update, I worked and got both limbs to bend good with the EKG at 18" with the long string. Checked the weight and I was at about 35# at 18". So i think I am going to go with the short string next with a short brace.

I thinned the area of those knots down a little bit more with the rest of the limb but there is still a slight swell or build up in that area of the limb (I left it thicker for the knots).

I will try to get pictures of the 18" draw and the area before moving to the short string, which I don't know when that will be as during the week I work from daylight to dark and even had to work yesterday, so today was resting time!

Another question I have is last summer I went to my uncle's house in Maryland and got my hands on some white ash that he had cut down for firewood, and we cut out a 72" straight section with the least amount of knots possible. After splitting the section into staves, one skinny split occurred and followed the grain. So I have in my possession a not much bigger than 1" wide (I measured the width the entire length of the split) split section about 4" thick the entire length.

I was thinking maybe I could take this and turn it into a kid's D bow. That split section is like 1-1/4" wide at the most. Would it work? or is it too skinny. I figured as long as I kept the stave long and made a D-bow out of it I might be-able to get away with a bow, but if not then it's no big deal. What do you guys think? If I were to approach it how should I do the layout? I was thinking maybe like 1" wide to at least mid-limb then taper to like 1/4" or 3/8" width tips.