Board bow build alongs! (Hopefully)

[Regular Paul]

My next endeavors are a couple more RO board bows to start with before I move on to some decent hickory boards I bought. The board on the right is going to be for my wife and around 40# and hopefully a whole lot more refined than my first. The board on the left is going to be an experiment. I can't get flipped tips or recurved tips out of my head so that's what I'm going to attempt. Not sure which yet though. I'm gonna push the envelope on this one and make it 66" and taper midlimb again and shoot for 45#. I figure the worst that can happen is it breaks and I learn what went wrong. The wood characteristics between these two boards couldn't be more different. The right feels kind of brittle with very porous early growth and the one on the left feels smooth and hard as polished stone. I'm intrigued by it. I know they're borderline rift/plain sawn but I'm not afraid to back if I need to.
     
   
 
My goal is to put pics up as they progress and seek advice on where to go with them. At the very least, I'll post the pics and story when I'm all done and just go from there.

I'm nervous and excited as a schoolboy asking out a prom date to post on this forum and start building again and I'm glad to be here!

Lastly, then I promise I'm done! I have a new three month old baby boy that's become the center of my life and that I couldn't be prouder of so progress could be very slow, but I WILL finish these build alongs and not leave you all hanging! So excited to be here! Thanks again!

[Regular Paul]

Really sorry for double posting. Having some technology problems. I thought technology was supposed to make life simpler!

[Pat B]

It takes more than end grain to build a good bow. What does the top grain and side grain look like?

[Wolftrail]

The end grain just shows how it was cut I think more to the point .  My issue with this type of board is taking more set than a 1/4 sawn board. And issues with splinters lifting. I agree the side grain may be ok or not.  One thing I hate is twisting.

[Regular Paul]

Both are straight as can be on the sides and the one on the left is wavy on back and the one on the right very straight back grain. Runoff is very minimal on both. I was planning on building a reflex caul and building in maybe two inches or so and also to straighten out the one board. Do you guys have experience with differences in oak characteristics? The left board is much smoother and seems harder. Generally speaking will one kind build a better bow? They both have good late growth.

[Wolftrail]

Probably either board will do.  I just tend to buy 1/4 sawn maple more than anything and also prefer white oak any day of the week over RO.  WO and Hickory are very close in strength.

[takefive]

Love your enthusiasm Paul!  The last longbow I made was a rift sawn red elm board with some wave to the grain.  I backed it with 1/8" slat of hickory and glued in 2" of reflex.  It's only lost about 1/4" of that after shooting it in.  It's about the same length as yours, but I made it 1 3/4" wide at the fades.  IMHO having the right width and length for the wood you're working is just as important as correct tiller and picking a board with good grain.  Anyway, enjoy the journey and keep us posted.    

[John Scifres]

I hate to squash enthusiasm and be a naysayer but I would not give those boards much of a chance.  I can count at least 5 grain violations on each one just on this end.

Wood choice is everything with wooden bows and grain is the priority on boards.

Wavy grain automatically disqualifies a board for me.  As does rift sawn.  I want plane or quarter sawn and grain that runs the length on the sides and the back.

[Regular Paul]

Hey honesty is the best policy. If I succeed I'll have done the near impossible and if these builds go south there's more wood out there plus oak adds a deep rich flavor to barbecue when you mix it in with hickory    In all seriousness, someone mentioned set with rift/plain sawn boards. Is it that much worse than a stave? I would have thought a plain sawn board would behave almost exactly like a stave. Keep the thoughts coming. I'm never done learning!

[LittleBen]

I've never noticed a difference in set between rift, quarter, and plain sawn boards, but I also haven't built a ton of board bows.

[Ice Mike]

I'm still a novice here, so take this with a "grain" of salt (LOL), but the board on the left looks like it has a little lateral warp. I only bring it up because it looks like you have already marked out the bow on the board. You should probably find dead center and stretch a string from end to end to find a straight section to mark your profile from, otherwise you'll end up with a twist that you can only correct with heat setting.

If you have to go thinner you can make that one the low poundage bow for your wife.

[Regular Paul]

Good eye Mike, and I ruminated on that a bit. I decided since it's my experiment bow I'm gonna rough it out then try to straighten it with heat. I actually tried marking a line through center but it has enough of a crook that it probably wouldn't have turned out very well. It still may not, but it'll be worth a try.

[George Tsoukalas]

Take them back us my advice. you need straight grained boards tip to tip. Check my site. Jawge
 http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/index.html

[Regular Paul]

I made it back!  Told you I would.  Finally got back in the shop and have been able to get a little work done.  

I've been working on my experiment/recurve bow and had some success and now just suffered a failure just tonight, which is why I'm here looking for help.  

Recently, I successfully used dry heat to get a lateral warp out of this board.  I clamped it to my bench past straight and used the heat gun two different times and was able to get centered from tip to tip.  I'm thinking awesome, I'm gonna pull this off!

Next I cut out the tip overlays and riser block from a beautiful piece of feather crotch black walnut that was hidden in an otherwise 2nd rate walnut board I bought a long time ago.  I added a strip of mahogany to the riser for looks.  Glued them on.  Still going ok.  Little did I know trouble was brewing.
 

Spent this evening rounding my edges and shaping the fades.  Still going great and I'm pleased with the oak/mahogany/walnut look so far.
 

Got done filing and sanding and thought hey, let's break in the new recurve form.  There's a little voice in my head saying I haven't thought something through but I can't figure out what it is.  So, I clamped up the first tip and admired my setup and the perfection I was about to achieve…but of course, pride cometh before the fall.
 

 

I started applying heat and whaddya know, it's bending.  Awesome.  Then, a sound that I knew wasn't right, and the voice in my head rang clear as a bell.      You all probably knew where this was headed before I even got to it...Having the tip overlay already glued on left a gap that allowed the wood to hinge bad and crack.  The crack is tough to see but you can see that little burr on the belly wood.  It seems to go fairly deep but not sure how deep.
 

This is where you experts come in to learn this rank amateur a lesson.  I'm definitely gonna abandon recurving this one, but to salvage the bow, do you think an underlay could stiffen the tip enough to salvage it or should I pike it on both ends and cut, as it were, my losses and have a shorter length/draw length bow?  It started at 66" and looks like it'll be around 62" if I pike it.  Might have to become my wife's new bow.

Really wish I would've recognized this problem before it came to this but I guess this is what learning is all about!  Thanks for any and all advice!  I'm going to bed!

[takefive]

Ouch!  I have been there and it's not a fun place to be.  How thick is it there (not counting the overlay)?  You probably only need 3/8" thickness or less at the tip.  O/w if the crack is deep, I would just cut it off at an angle and glue a wedge shaped piece in its place so you still keep the length you want.  I'd make sure the mating surfaces were nice and flat and use a good glue like Titebond 3.  Your tip isn't going to bend those last few inches, anyway.

[Eric Krewson]

Yep, you can't bend with an overlay on. I would take the overlay off, glue the crack closed with super glue, make your bend then bend and extra  long overlay on the same form as the limb bend and glue it to the back of the bow.

I did the same when the belly of my bow splintered during the bend. I added a lot of wood to the back, then filed off the offending splinter and could remove a lot of belly wood to accentuate the curve.

 

[bubby]

I think your biggest problems are that your using dry heat, you need to steam/boil to get that bend with red oak and most woods, and your fades are to sharp an angle plus i'm pretty sure your handle is gonna pop off, not enough thickness difference from limb to fade

[Regular Paul]

Well, I took a lot of your guys' advice and did a hybrid solution to my problem.  I cut the overlays off, soaked the crack with super glue in the morning and in the evening went back to try the recurving again.  I started with the other tip this time and it cracked in the same place as the other one.  I need to reevaluate the dry heat process and my form design.  I think once it started bending all the strain was staying in that first spot about two inches in from the tip.  I think I'll drill holes along the edge in my form to clamp the bow down as it bends to redistribute where it's stressing the most.  It seems that's what Josh on PA did with dry heat on red oak.  (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=13152.0)

I collected my pride, consulted with my dog, and decided against recurving on this experiment bow and instead went for reflexing the limbs a bit, something else I'd wanted to try.  That actually went ok.  I wasn't looking for anything drastic, just a little bit.  It may pull out as soon as I tiller but at least I got the basic idea of it down.  

 

I then went with takefive's advice and cut the broken tips off and made some walnut extensions.  I made the angled cut pretty long, about two inches, and glued them on with TBIII.  Here's the next question.  My instinct asked when I started this if I could cut the nocks on these extensions or would the glue joint fail at some point?  I've read both for and against.  It seems at the very least if I cut the nocks just outside of the core tips I should be ok.  What are your thoughts?
 

 

Bubby, I tried with this bow to do a short riser and maximize working limb so I kinda went steep with the fade angle.  However, I know when I start tillering i'm going to have to remove a lot of wood from the limb just outside the fade area so it'll get more gradual.  And, I may find that i'll have plenty of room to shape my grip so I can make the fade angle more gradual.  

This is only my second bow so I'm gleaning every bit of info I can from all you who have built many, many bows.  Thanks for all the advice so far.

[takefive]

I've seen a few bows posted with extensions at the tips like yours and there is a picture of one that Tim Baker made in one of the Bowyer's Bibles.  If you have a good bond the glue joint supposedly is stronger than the wood itself.  But, I have to admit that the whole concept scares me a little bit.  I did a maple bow with 4" extensions, but it also had an eighth inch hickory backer glued over it that pretty much made it bomb proof.
Good luck and keep us posted.

The few times I've tried to bend white woods with dry heat have been so frustrating that I'm going to try steam if I ever mess with it again.  If you can get your hands on some osage, that stuff is a joy to bend with dry heat.

[John Scifres]

Cut the nocks in the extensions.  Otherwise there was no point in adding them.  

But make sure and tiller from a distance with a pulley setup.  Maybe wear a hard hat and some safety glasses.  Lessons and experience are great but no sense losing an eye  

Keep the kid and the dog away too.