Isn't a 650 grain arrow a "650 grain arrow"?

[Richie Nell]

quote:
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Originally posted by Richie Nell:
So to restate what I thought from the beginning...
10gpp or any other # of grains per lb. of draw is hogwash when speaking of efficient penetration. It is only a romantic aspect of arrow trajectory and flight beauty, which is only a few nothces above hogwash.

I understand. thanks

That is basically what Rob is saying....he shoots an arra that has the trajectory he wants
rather than a minimum grain weight for penetration.

That is my point and what most folks are doing.

There is either flight romantics, which makes arrow weight irrelevant or:

650 grains is 650 grains

[Diamond Paul]

I would say "useful trajectory" means that it works more easily at more distances that a slower arrow does.  Some people feel comfortable taking shots at more than fifteen yards, in which case it is easier to hit with a flatter shooting arrow.  If you like to shoot 3-D in the down times, you spend less time looking for arrows when you encounter the occasional thirty yard target.  I guess what I'm saying is that you should strike some kind of balance between fence post and needle when choosing the proper arrow for your needs.  I think Dr. Ashby's studies are great, but I also think they have driven some to believe that you need a lead pipe with an ice pick on the end in order to shoot through things that don't take much killing, i.e., deer.  I hate to see people thinking that average game animals can't be killed without chucking bricks at them.

[Terry Green]

Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
 

I want an arra that exhibits a minimal 15-30 yard trajectory compromise.

Rob...I think what Richie is trying to say is IF that IS what you want, then the GPP or bow weight really doesn't matter.

Example...lets say you want a 650 grain arrow that meets your comment above, which for example 175 FPS.  You can get that from a #55 ACS or a 65# Hill bow...you pick, and the GPP is completely different. Either bow is getting you there, but the GPP is not the standard, the "I want an arra that exhibits a minimal 15-30 yard trajectory compromise." is achieved 'as your standard' whether you want to shoot a lighter ACS or if you are a die hard HH fan.  The arrow doesn't care which bow got it to its flight specs, so the GPP is irrelevant.


OK....there, I ran the horse through again.

[Rob DiStefano]

GPP means only one important criteria to me - DON'T GO TOO LOW for a given bow holding weight. Other than that, I don't care about GPP as long as my arra speed is good, and if it's not good enuf for me at 15-30 yards then I've gotta change something.      

To me, it's not just about GPP or speed or stability - it's all a compromise of the parts and performance and each of us gets to set our own standards.

[SteveB]

There is a big difference in the trajectory of 420gr vs 600 gr out of a 40# bow - even at 15 yds.
Run it threw a ballistics calculater.

The differnce is enough to cause a poor hit if your "instinctive eye" sees 13yds and it's really 18 - very common in the woods.

My shooting at unmarked yardages is most accurate with an arrow speed around 185fps. This allows me to make the best shot I can, therefore maximixing recovery. I choose my arrow wght accordingly, 8.5 to 9gr out of my 50 to 53# bows - they are very quiet. Goal is to hit the hair in front of the vitals with a scary sharp broadhead. Do so and the rest takes care of itself.

I will never be shooting a bow powerful enough ( as is the case with many if not most) to bust a 650 gr+ arrow thru a shoulder ball socket, and I have no plans to stop hunting because of it.

Steve

[Terry Green]

Exactly Rob!!!                 Saddle UP!  

I've got different standards for different game, and it ALL has to do with arrow weight and speed.

Take my whitetail set up....its my standard go to arrow weight and speed for the trajectory I prefer.....

Now, when I hog hunt, I 'prefer' to up my weight by 100 grains cause I'm not going to shoot at a hog farther than 20 yards cause the goodies are tricky...so the speed don't matter really, but the extra punch does.

When I went to WY to chase antelopes, I wanted to gain 10 FPS due to the perspective out there where I might shoot farther than it really looks to me being use to eastern woodlots.  So, I used my fastest recurve, and lightened my arrow...cause lopes don't need the extra punch.  It worked like a charm.

I matched my game to the speed and weights to get the job done....not to GPP.  And like you said, I never got close to being too low.

Like when you ask water buff hunters what you need to get through....they'll tell you 900 grains @ 170 or better....they don't tell you 10 grains per pound.

IMO, GPP are basically foot notes on a balance sheet.

[Rob DiStefano]

Originally posted by Terry Green:
... IMO, GPP are basically foot notes on a balance sheet.

Yep, works for me ... now where's them HOGS?  :D

[JC]

Well said Diamond Paul, clarified much of what I was trying to say right there!

Whooowheee Molson...socialism? Dang, we're just talking bowhunting here man. Useful trajectory is in the eye of the bowholder...what you consider fine others may not. No one is saying you HAVE to use a particular weight...even Dr. Ashby's comments are SUGGESTIONS. No socialism here as far as I can see.

Richie, what I'm saying is there is no hard and fast rule. Forgive for being blunt but you seem to have an axe to grind and want to prove the 10gr/# guideline as "wrong" for some reason. It's just a rule of thumb...mainly from bowyers who don't want bows to blow up from people using arrows that are too light.  10g/# is not as much of a penetration rule of thumb as much as it is a bow longevity one.  Use it if you want, discard it if you don't. Even the 650gr arrow is not a hard and fast rule....out of 25#, it ain't gonna bust no bones! So what's the fps threshold w/650gr arrow....we'll have to wait till Doc gets enough evidence to support that fact. Right now, we simply don't know. However, I know, that my arrow out of my bows, will zip slap through anything I've shot at...and it usually ain't even 10g/#.

So here's the brass tacks from my point of view: My son will be shooting a 45@28 hi-po longbow this deer season, he actually will be drawing approx 26+. I will have him shooting arrows approx 500gr for deer...because at that bow weight, I personally think that's the lower limit for deer, just my opinion, your mileage may vary. But with that weight, he knows the trajectory and he can sho nuff hit what he's aiming at (at least without fur    ) His shots will be relatively close (I'll be in the stand, limiting him to what I feel he is comfortable with at the time) at smaller deer (our southern yearling does are not large in body). I feel completely comfortable that this is an ethical setup with the broahead we have chosen (and you can bet it's gonna be foc of 20%+). 10gr/# is not applicable from his lower end of the spectrum,  in my opinion. But, it is applicable in the 50+# bow weight category for whitetail,  again in my opinion. If, for whatever reason, we run into issues with penetration out of his setup, we'll go heavier. But I would rather him hit exactly where he is aiming than worry about another 150 gr and him miss by 2". But that may be just me. Useful trajectory here is defined as what he hits most with, even after practicing with each differnt setup.

Chad Jones has killed numerous, P&Y whitetails with arrows that weigh far less out of bows of the same caliber....I can't argue with his obvious success. We agree on different minimums...but we agree to let each other to our own opinions. His deer ain't walkin away crippled, and neither are mine. Opinions vary, respect others for theirs.

To some, 10g/# means something....to me, it means don't blow up the bow, not "that's the least you can shoot for penetration". As far as anecdotal evidence, I'll bet there are FAR more arrows going through deer with the 10g/# and even less number than there are 650gr+ arrows. Just from the sheer odds alone.

So, all this is about improving penetration. Doc says 650 is the limit, his data proves it. You've had problems with penetration? Listen to the man, it will probably work for you. Never had a problem? Keep shootin what you have confidence in and quit listenin to the folks hollerin at you that you are doing it wrong.

Whew....when is turkey season again?   :rolleyes:

[JC]

Guess we wuz all typin at the same time    

Yup Terry, multiple standards depending on game. I likes heavy fer hogs, not so heavy fer deer etc. Now why did you have to splain it so well....you dun kilt the fun   :p

[Terry Green]

Wow...you mean I not only explained it but explained it WELL!!!!

Hot DANG my horse not only got noticed....

It finally placed!!!                            

[JC]

Yep Terry, he placed....but he only paid a buck fifty.  :p  

Hey SteveB, meant to say "great post". Well put.

Dang, but we got lots of smart folks on here!

[Terry Green]

Well that's a lot better than my 2 cents!!!   :D

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

Some of these numbers leave me scratching my head. I suppose that's because I keep thinking if I was ever hunting an animal I felt required a 650-grain arrow, I sure wouldn't be doing it with a 45# bow.

[SteveB]

Thanks JC - really not trying to stir.

Just want all sides to be seen.

Steve

[Molson]

Socialism was tongue-in-cheek.  Guess I should have added one of these...    It just aint so that 10 gpp can be considered equal across the board without regard to bow weight, arrow weight, what you're hunting, and under what conditions.  It is a fine thing for paper and bow longevity, but that's about it.  I believe that point has been well made above and I happen to agree with it.

Obviously my previous post did not convey what I meant in the manner I meant it. By useful trajectory, I was speaking of hunting distances.  I simply do not believe that bowhunters shooting less than 50 pounds with the bows made today, cannot accurately shoot a 12-15 gpp arrow at distances less than 20 yds.  It is my opinion that for the average bowhunter, the potential benefit gained in penetration from heavier gpp arrows out of lighter weight bows on whitetail, far outweighs the potential benefit of increasing shot distance out past 20 yds.  Obviously you must strike a balance based on your hunting conditions and obviously there is an actual limit to the amount a given draw weight can push.

And that is the side I wanted seen.  Light weight bows are more than capable of shooting heavier arrows and more than capable of killing deer with them.  The Good Doc was just shooting 700+ grain arrows from a 54# straight end longbow at 27" and breaking through buff ribs at 20 yds.  Scaling down and applying some of that knowlege toward deer hunting when using light bows of modern design makes perfect sense for most less than perfect situations.  Or so I would think...

[JC]

Molson, no harm/no foul...hard convey humor through the monitor.

I think it's not so much increasing distance as it is improving trajectory and therefore minimizing errors in range "calculation" (if you are an instinctive shooter) or "estimation" (if you are a gap shooter).

Healthy balance...that will vary from shooter to shooter. When I start hitting them in the shoulder, I'll go to 700gr (or if I shoot my 70# I might shoot 700 anyway). Until then, I'll stick with what I got, roughly 9.6gr/# cause with most bows, that gives me 185fps at my draw...what I seem to shoot best at. If I shot lighter bows, I might think differently.

[Rob DiStefano]

It's all a compromise.

Launching heavy (600-700gr) arras, with high FOC's, from holding weights around 45-50#, will have trajectory issues for varied distances from 10 yards to 25 yards, for my kinda hunting.  Add in the elevation factor between ground and tree stand hunting.  So, that scenario would be a problem for me, with regards to arra trajectory (as an "instinctive" bowhunter).  

If I can't consistently hit the game due to the heavy arra/light bow arrangement that greatly varies my arra trajectory, then I'd rather go with a faster/flatter flying arra that'll better cover a range of 15-30 yards (for my hunting) and afford better overall accuracy.  Which means a lighter arra.

And yet, I still want my GPP no lower than 9gpp and would prefer 10-11gpp (all with high 20-25% FOC).  And I want at least a 500gr arra.  

All of the above shows me the direction for setting up my killing tackle - 55# holding weight with a fast r/d hybrid longbow, 540 grain arras with 24% FOC.  That should be a good setup for low 15-30 yard trajectory, and should be viable for killing deer, hog or bear.

YMMV.

[Molson]

We're pretty much saying the same thing.  I personally consider 500 gr a minimum arrow weight for whitetail.  I also agree that, for whitetail, once you hit 500gr at 50#'s, adding additional bow weight gives you more freedom to make choices such as Rob, JC, and Terry have described.  

Once you drop below that mark, it seems responsible to go the other way.  Increase the arrow weight above the 10gpp "standard" and reduce your trajectory expectations to cover a range of say 10-20 yds.  That seems to be what you guys are saying, without actually saying it.

As for accuracy, the single best way to improve accuracy under hunting conditions is to reduce the shot distance.  Any error you make at 15 yds is not only magnified, but more likely to occur, at 25.

[Rob DiStefano]

Yeah, Molson, that's about it for me, too.  500 gr minimum for a medium game arra, and that would dictate a 50# holding weight.  

Concerns/problems crop up when going under 50# and launching 500 grains.

It'd be wonderful to have all game stand no more than 10-15 yards away.  Ain't gonna happen for me.  I need to be able to reach out to as much as 25 and 30 yards.  That's where low arra trajectory, along with decent arra weight, enters my equation and compromises.  And how confident I feel about my accuracy and shot placement under hunting conditions.  It sure gets tougher as I get older, too!    :eek:  

Like I said, it's all about making wise compromises.

[Molson]

Absolutely Rob.  You have reached your goals by increasing draw weight, not by reducing arrow weight, to achieve your acceptable level of performance. In my opinion, that is the correct way to do it.  It's when dropping below the 500/50 mark, that a different way of thinking should apply.