what is phenolic?

[inksoup]

i keep hearing from you guys, i used phenolic, i did it with phenolic etc...

what it phenolic?
i googled it but, it seems like king of glue?
also there is a phenolic plywood. do you mean this?


best.

[bornofmud]

It's sheets up linen embedded with epoxy, makes a very strong, dense plastic.  Commonly used in risers to make them stronger, and on the tip overlays so that you can use fastflight and other high end string materials without shearing off the tips.

[Pat B]

My Treadway longbow has a red phenolic lam in the center of each limb as decoration and stability I guess.

[Robertfishes]

There seems to be a couple of different types of "phenolic" one is linen based and the other paper based. I remember reading about phenol glues used in plywood factory's, very toxic stuff.. I use a layer of linen phenolic between two 030 core tuff pieces in my bow tips. It is tuff stuff, tougher than fiberglass but not as stiff. I have 1/4" x 2" x 18" phenolic and  fiberglass pieces in my shop, I can hand bend the phenolic but not the fiberglass.  Pat that red stripe is most likely fiberglass, either uni-weft or core tuff.

[carpin'mark]

Phenolic resin is the original 'plastic', for those of us who are really really old and remember the black rotary phones, those were phenolic, the tradename was Bakelite. The stuff we use in bows with the cotton/linen weave was originally tradenamed micarta. I personally prefer it over glass in tips and some curved areas because it can be bent and will stay bent where glass and G10 always want to be straight. Hope that helps Inky!

[BigJim]

I make every effort to keep phenolic out of my risers. It is not very friendly...ever feel the lines in a riser full of phenolic/wood combo? Phenolic will not expand and contract like wood and thus make small and mostly miner separation marks at glue joints. In addition, you will sand wood away from the phenolic as you reduce the riser. Phenolic doesn't sand well like glass or wood.

I'm not saying it doesn't work, just not friendly.
I use woven glass in my tips for some of the same reasons. If you use thinner pieces, it will form well and stay there. It also cuts and sands so much easier yet is much stronger.

The different substrate in phenolic will determine the pattern when sanded. Canvas impregnated phenolic will look very grainy hence the desire for the linen substrate. Paper phenolic is even prettier, but has a greater sheer tendancy.

BigJim

[LittleBen]

I think Jim hit on the thing I notice most about phenolic. It really doesn't sand well like wood and glass do. Even though glass is so much harder, it sands, cuts, works way more easily.

Working with phenolic you'll think it made out of stone.

[inksoup]

thanks guys...

i now know...

keep using glass then  

[JGR1269]

I've done them both ways. You get a nicer look with glass for sure and it's much easier to work with.

[Brett Leinmiller]

So paper, canvas and linen phenolic are each a different composite? If I read that much correct, paper looks the best but sheers easiest, linen is second best in looks and canvas is the most grainy?

I'm just making sure I've read this thread right concerning how each one ranks in workability,durability and looks.

When you compare phenolic to glass for use in a riser or limbtips, what type of fiberglass are you referring to and who have you all found to be the best sources? I saw G10 and tuff core mentioned as well. Are these phenolic? Thank you

[bornofmud]

g10 is like phenolic but made with fiberglass instead of linen or paper. I use it in all of my risers as an I beam.  Pretty tough stuff to work with.  Alpha knife supply and eplastics have it available, aks for colors, eplastics for black. It's pretty pricey stuff.

[Crooked Stic]

Jim has hit it for sure on phenolic in risers. I even noticed that before I got into building bows. Had a buddy that had a really nice cocobolo riser with phenolic accents. You could catch a fingernail on the phenolic. I don't think it ever came apart but it was scary to me.

[inksoup]

this guy
 http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-make-homemade-micarta/

showing how to make a micarta at home.
basically it is with polyester resin + hardener and cottons. easy.

i will make one for my self now. tell you the results.

best.

[Brett Leinmiller]

Good link. I'm anxious to hear you're results.

[arrowlauncherdj]

Jim one thing I do with the linen phenolic on tips is to polish it with steel wool really good before I apply any finish. It takes a lot of that grainy appearance right off. I just figured this out on my last 2 bows and it makes a huge difference.

[BigJim]

Good idea arrowlauncherdj. I actually don't use phenolic unless it is in an all phenolic riser and won't even do that on a takedown as I feel it flexes too much.
After I went to reinforced glass (like phenolic but with glass) I never consider using the phenolic again.

By the way, I sell the stuff in 1/8" and 1/16" and have laminated many entire risers using the 1/8". Can be difficult to see the lines at times.

I sell phenolic too because not everyone has experienced the glass difference    
BigJIm

[steadman]

I like the looks of the glass Jim. Will be in touch soon.

[arrowlauncherdj]

Jim I just got some of your 1/8" glass in yesterday along with the mango veneers for a buddy of mines replacement limbs for his recurve. I think I'm really gonna enjoy using that over phenolic. It seems super stiff and will likely take the flex out of a riser like a champ

Dave

[BigJim]

Yep! When I first swithced from the phenolic to glass, I had to be careful as the file cut it so well, that I had to slow down and reduce the pressure so I wouldn't over cut.

BIgJIm