Glass vs All Wood Laminate Bows?

[Archer Dave]

Just curious what you guys think about laminate bows using either glass or all wood. I have done some reading where people say that the all wood laminate bows can be just as good as the glass bows. If this is so, why bother with the glass?

Will a all wood laminate bow last as long?

One of the reasons I am asking is because I am going to start making a bow form for an R/D, and want to start thinking about what materials I am going to make the bow from.

Are they any disadvantage/advantages to either an all wood bow, or glass?

Thanks
Dave

[mwosborn]

This could be interesting    

You should make both on the same form and then you will have a comparison.

Some very fine bows can be made from all wood materials.  With that said, glass makes for a faster more durable bow.  There is a reason Mr. Bear started adding glass to his bows back in the day.

[Bowjunkie]

I disagree that glass makes a bow faster.... or more durable for that matter. Glass is heavy and slows them down.

I once made 3 d/r longbows... same profile, all 70 lb @ 28". One was glass entombed maple, one was bamboo backed osage, and one was bamboo backed yew. I shot them for distance and the glass bow consistantly came in last place... boo/osage a close second... and the boo/yew bow won by a considerable margin.

There are a couple of good reasons to use glass... but there are plenty of reasons not to, imo.

[jsweka]

I have yet to have any of the glass bows I've made break.  THOUSANDS of shots through them.

I occasionally flirt with the idea of attempting all wood bows, but then I see a post on here where somebody was working on one and it has broken.  I know I'll end up with a shootable bow when I start a glass one - I might miss my intended weight by a couple lbs, but I will have a shooter.

Maybe I just lack the patience for a wood bow.

[takefive]

I'm working on my 17th wood bow (5 from staves, 12 wood lam from boards) so that's where my perspective is from.  Tried to make one glass bow last year and the glue up kicked my a$$.  Smooth On has to be the slipperiest substance ever made.  I mean everything slid, lams, riser...I was stunned, especially coming from wood lam glue ups with Unibond that just take a couple of pieces of tape to keep them in place.  I have all the materials to do another though, and have read some posts about using plastic tie downs, toothpicks in the riser fades, etc. and will give it a go again one of these days.

In between I've found out how much I enjoy making wooden bows, realized how much more I have yet to learn, and how fascinating (and sometimes frustrating) it is to me.  The next one always presents a different challenge, but I'll bet the guys who make glass bows feel the same way about their bows.

Have to admit that I am jealous that the glass guys can use all that beautiful, terribly violated grain under clear glass on the backs of their bows.  We wood guys have to use the  straight, boring stuff.  

[fujimo]

little ben build some laminated bows- that look like glass bows- and they are performers- i know- i have one!
i like building both- i love the feel of a beautiful, character self bow. but love the crazy stuff one can do with a glass bow- design and wild woods

do like bowjunkie says build both!!!

[LittleBen]

My take is this ... You can build a wood bow that looks, feels, shoots like a glass bow.

I don't have the testing to prove it but I don't think the wood bows will have the durability of the glass bows.

I have glass bows that are pushing 50yrs old, and have been thoroughly used and I don't hesitate to take them out in bad weather or freezing/scorching temps.

When I take my wood bows out in those conditions I eat my heart out. Draw weight can change, they take more set over time, and they're more susceptible to damage from cyclic loading (I.e. bein drawn and shot over and over)

I love wood bows and I'll keep building them and trying to make them better and better, but often with wood we're balancing performance and durability more delicately than glass bows.

Bottom line ... When it comes to wood bows, I say do it for love and not for reason. Your heart will say wood bows even when your brain says glass.

[mikkekeswick]

A chronograph will soon tell you that a very good wooden bow can be every bit as fast as a glass bow.
To make that very good wooden bow will take a few years of lots and lots of trial and error (if learning by yourself) to get a really good grip on the material and the ways to listen to what it's telling you can be very subtle. A wood bow needs a lot of understanding.
A glass bow on the other hand is basically engineering. Two bit's of glass and a ground taper or two, glue it up, cut it out straight and you've got a bow....it's like bow making by numbers. You can use just about any wood so you don't even need to be able to read boards.
Duarbility is linked to how well the wooden bow was made, how well it was designed for it's intended usage and how well the owner looks after it and understands it's limitations.
Glass - well if the correct methods are used in construction is going to be able to take 'abuse' and still live. That same abuse would likely push the wooden bow over the edge.

[J.F. Miller]

I think Mr. Bear realized early on that if he wanted to deliver bows to the masses (and make lots of money) that he had to make them as idiot proof as possible. fiberglass backs and bellies make them considerably more rugged than all wood bows. wooden bows, even the very best of them, are not idiot proof. ruggedness is the only category of comparison that well made wooden bows surrender to glass, all else being equal.

mikkekeswick says "A wood bow needs a lot of understanding." that sums it up exceedingly well.

I don't think a well made bamboo backed osage bow gives up much in the ruggedness department either. I've beaten the hell out of a quite a few of them, and they keep right on shooting. they do not require the TLC that selfbows, especially white woods or Yew, require.

[JamesV]

I don't doubt that a very well built wood lam bow will perform  but I would seriously question the durability over time. I had a BBI longbow explode at full draw 75# while I was charting the force draw curve and was being drawn mechanically. Two foot piece of the limb went thru the grill on my 48" shop fan and stopped the blade, it could have killed someone. The glass bow failures I have experienced have not been as violent, the limb will usually give way and just folded back but don't become a killer projectile. I would NEVER sell a wood bow for liability reasons.

James

[Bowjunkie]

Ok, but the question was a comparison between all-wooden laminated bows and glass/wood laminated bows. That is how I directed my response.

ANY bow 'type' is only as durable as its OWN design, material quality, construction methods and care allow it to be. I have seen glass bows made by some of the most renown pro bowyers where the glass failed. They're tough, but not indestructible.

We shouldn't make a wooden bow to look exactly like a glass
bow and expect it to perform as well as, or be as equally durable. It's not a fair comparison... Just like making a glass bow to successful wooden bow specs wouldn't be a fair comparison of a glass bow's durabity either.

The masses.... ah yes... the masses. The only reason I would rather make a glass/wood bow for the general population is because of the 'abuse factor' mentioned above. So much is idiot-proof nowadays, or 'throw away', folks seem less concerned about 'proper care'. If someone is going to be ignorant of proper basic care and usage of their bows, glass bows do stand a better chance of surviving. A friend of mine once strung a glass/wood longbow I'd made him backwards... took him 3 tries... It survived no worse for wear. An all wooden bow probably wouldn't have.

[Wolftrail]

I have built nothing but wood bows,  like they say apparently the wood core in a glass bow does only 15% of the work its merely used as a pattern so to speak.  Climate conditions can change a wood bows characteristics as well as it taking set over time.  And I like to hold draw for a second or 2.  Wood is not created equal the grain and design determines its longevity in the long run. Liability reasons and the explosion factor come into play as well.

[takefive]

I've only been making wooden bows for a little over 2 years, and I don't want to jinx myself, but I've yet to have one explode.  Did have the maple backer split on one drawn to 24" on my tillering tree, but I could have avoided that if I'd put overlays on right away.  It split at the side nock on the top limb then all the way thru the handle, but no pieces went flying.
I made a bamboo/cherry/ osage tri-lam that I shoot a couple of times a week in my basement.  I'm sure I've put a thousand or more arrows thru it.  Who knows, maybe it will break next time I draw it back.  But there is some risk in just about everything we do and I'll bet that statistically the walk down my basement steps is more of a hazard than shooting the bow once I get down there.

[mikkekeswick]

JamesV - just because you've seen a wooden bow break doesn't mean they should all be 'tarred with the same brush'.
Also drawing wooden bows (to full draw and holding to get a reading)on a tillering tree isn't really the best idea. Virtually no tillering tree set up mimics exactly the forces you put on the bow when drawn by hand. I never use a tillering tree once past about 22 inch or so because I know the tiller will need adjusting once shot by hand. By definition this means that one limb is over strained on a tree.

[BowWright]

Choosing the quality materials is critical to a durable all wood laminate bow. They do also need a more critical eye during tiller because they will not let you get away with as much as a FG bow. If you do your job right they will be just as good as a laminate fiberglass bow, in some ways better. For example they will be somewhat quieter because wood dampens vibrations in the limb much better than FG does. However, it is much easier to build a durable glass bow than a one out of all wood.

[J.F. Miller]

another advantage that all wood bows offer during construction over glass is the ability to finesse the tiller. small tweaks and corrections and weight management are not always possible, or at least very difficult, with glass bows, but quite easy with a wooden bow.

[mwosborn]

Don't want this to turn into a glassbow vs woodbow thread....and....I love my all wood bows - I have made about 30 of them and have hunted several.  I will continue to make them as I like making them better than making glass.

To clarify my initial response when I said glass makes for a faster more durable bow I mean this...  If you randomly pick a bunch of glass bows and a bunch of all wooden bows made by a variety of bowyers, on average, the glass bows will be faster and more durable (IMO).  Granted I have never done the sampling and testing.  But as several have mentioned, it takes a pretty seasoned bowyer to make a high end all wood bow that would compare in speed and durability to a glass bow.

If you look at the MOJAM test results published in TBB 4 with close to 100 bows tested, the very fasest was around 180 fps and this was a 70# bow.  My first (not so pretty) 50# glass bow would be about the same.

Someone new to making bows asked why bother with the glass if all wooden is just as good.  I doubt that his first all wooden bow will be as fast and as durable as his first glass bow.  

[BowWright]

Yes, I agree. Glass bows are usually faster/ more durable. One of the reasons for this I believe is that most guys who build wood bows tend not to make them as radically profiled as glass bows. Design counts for a lot.

[PEARL DRUMS]

As long as a guy doesn't shoot a glass bow of any sort, he'll never know what he is missing! And his self bows/wood composites will be plenty fast and durable.

Along the those same lines, I quit measuring draw weight on my bows. For some reason or another that number on the limb really meant something to me and dictated what bow I hunted. Now I just grab bows that feel good and hunt them.

[Carson81]

Originally posted by LittleBen:


Bottom line ... When it comes to wood bows, I say do it for love and not for reason. Your heart will say wood bows even when your brain says glass.

Well said little Ben. I have never made a glass bow, but I have shot plenty, and until I discovered wood bows, I shot glass exclusively. Once I started making wood bows, my heart began to ache for archery day and night.

Like Mikeswick, I walk away from the tillering tree once I have 3/4" of the bows draw length bending well. Tillering trees are not as necessary to the process as a beginner might think.  "wood bows take a lot of understanding" That is a great line!