My First Bow, BBI Build Along

[macbow]

From the two shots it looks like the right fade is still bending more than the left.

I would do as you said on mid limbs blending in toward fades and,tips.
That left,fade could use a few scrapes.

At this point it would be good if you had a peg or something to lock the string at about 50 pounds of weight.
Then the tillering gizmo would really show you differences as you ran it along each limb.
A 6 inch straight edge can do the same,thing.
It will point out just where to,scrape.

[mikkekeswick]

You seem to have missed out bracing it at a low brace height?
Are you pulling full draw weight yet? If not then you are in danger of coming in underweight.
You really should blend your riser into the working limbs. This is the point of maximum stress on a bow and you have a very abrupt change in thickness = bad news! Trust me on this one - it should be your next job.

[mikkekeswick]

Also you shouldn't brace the bow at all when it is showing imbalance.
From now on its very useful to be drawing the bow by hand and get somebody to take a picture for you or use a timer. This is because it may well look different in your hand to how it looks on the board and the relative stress working on each limb will be different in your hand compared to the tillering board.
One more point the limbs shouldn't be even strengths - the lower needs to be a shade stronger due to the mechanics of drawing a bow by hand and the fact that your nock doesn't get nocked dead center on the string.

[macbow]

That is a,good point on your riser.
It is sorta short to get a good taper into the limbs.
Now is the time to work the handle and get some longer dips.

[Pyro43]

So I haven't had the chance to work out the last few things you guys have mentioned. I just want to clarify a few things, I should have some time tomorrow afternoon.

I use a program to overlay the images that I take and I can see what you are talking about Macbow, about the left fade bending less.

I do have a question about that, how much of the bow is considered the fades or dips, and at what point is it considered the working limbs?

The reason I ask is because I've got the impression that the fades is just the first maybe 2" where the handle tapers to the limb, and I've seen some bows where that transition is rather abrupt, and others where it is like 4-5" long. Here is a close up of where mine are at right now.

   

So based on some bows I've seen, I was thinking mine was pretty average. Not to contradict was has been said, cause you guys have a lot more experience than me, but based on the picture do you still think I need to make that transition more gradual? If so, How much? I don't have a lot of room without affecting my overall handle, so I'd like to keep as much of that intact as possible, but I'd rather have a well working bow    :D

And I'm going to peg a the bow down like you said and use the tillering gizmo, I just haven't made it yet. I can see how it would be helpful, the bends and flat spots are very hard to see.

mikkekeswick I did use a short brace string, I just don't think I got any pics of it, I got the tips bending to 10" pretty quick, and so moved on to the full brace. Though I'm not use what you mean by not bracing it if imbalanced? Don't I have to brace it to check where the imbalances are? I think I'm just confused on what you mean, could you explain that a little more for me?

Lastly, I adjusted my tillering tree today to more closely match what Bowjunkie talks about in his post here:    Timing tutorial . Deans article on tillering the organic bow says about the say thing, I just understand Bowjunkies explanation better. I had a pic and deleted it before upload, so I'll have some more pics you can give me some feedback on next time. I hope adjusting my tree like that will help me get the timing better. Being my first bow I only expect so much, but everything I can do to improve my odds can't hurt.

Sorry I'm so long winded sometimes, I'm trying to understand your guyses feedback and get this thing right. I can't wait to get it shooting    

[macbow]

This close up helps.
I like that your transition actually goes into the core wood. That will help keep the handle in place.

The style of handle you have as is,would be great with a power lamination between the bamboo and IPE.

I'd certainly go with Bojunkie's method then you can dis regard the lower limb being stronger, just tiller,for limb timing using your own nocking point to pull from.

When you work your current handle down on the fades even gaining a,1/8 on each end of the handle would make it better.
Just get into the lighter wood at a less steep angle.

Good question on where the fade ends. Certainly starts on the IPE before it gets,thicker towards the handle. It continues till the handle is thick enough that it stops any bending I would say.

[Pyro43]

 

I'm back.

So I don't know if anyone even noticed,     . It's been so long since I worked on it, at least for my memory, that I had to go read through my own posts again to remember where I left off at    

[macbow]

Just looking at the 20" draw photo it certainly looks a little off.
But that could well be the way it sits on the tree.

If the string is tracking straight down with the fulcrum and string hooked near your expected nock point that is a good sign.

I would suggest doing all the rest of your tillering with a palm sander or just sand paper. Also a straight. Edge or tillering gizmo will show small areas of concern.

Looking pretty good.

[Pyro43]

I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one it looks a little off to. Meaning of course that it's not just my bad eye Macbow, not trying to say your's is off too   .

Like I mentioned the overlaid and reversed image shows them bending almost identically. Though now that I think about it, I had to adjust the images a little to compensate for the bow not being level after I pulled it to 20". Does that mean one limb is heavier than another, or is my tree not holding the bow level? Maybe a little of both.

That brings up one more question I had. I've noticed in some guys posts, Bowjunkies is the first that comes to mind, They mention having a pivot point on the tree to balance the bow where the thumb web of the grip is. Instead of a broad flat surface like I have right now, mine would be 3 1/2" because I used a 2x4. Should I round my tree where the bow sits, or place something on top to create a smaller pivot point where my grip is? I imagine a smaller pivot point will do a better job of revealing imbalance in the limb, but at what point is it impractical? cause a lot of trees use 2x4s from what I've seen, and only a few seam to show any rounding. Though in one thread, they mentioned having inserts they use to change the pivot point based on the bow.

I guess there are a lot of ways to do it, but if forcing the bow to balance on a smaller pivot point will help me better see any imbalance, it sure would help someone like me to get a better tiller and tune. I can sometimes be a little OCD perfectionist though, wanting to get it more perfect than is practical or possible. They refer  to that as a the law of diminishing returns.

Anyway, thanks Macbow.

[J.F. Miller]

a couple of things; to my eye it looks the limbs are bending about the same amount, but the arcs of their bends are not the same. the lower limb is bending a bit more than the upper just outside the handle, but I like the way the lower limb is bending for being at 20" of draw, so I'd say the right limb is too stiff. still, I would stay off of the 8" below the handle until you get that correction made. I would advise against pulling the bow any further until you have made the corrections. work on that right limb. if you are 60@20", you can still make weight, but you're going to have to make the corrections perfectly, without removing any more stock than is absolutely necessary get that stiff area moving.

once the limbs are bending in the same arc, balancing their strength is as simple as removing wood evenly along the stronger limbs entire length.

having the ability to blend the working limb into the non-working handle with some finesse is major benefit toward achieving the best tiller possible. you cannot do that very well with a handle like you have now. I'll see if I can rustle up some pics to demonstrate.

[macbow]

I agree on the limbs.
Wait for some pictures. I don't do much shaping of the grip area till after tillering.

If anything some shims could help with leveling. Or maybe the flat surface on your handle is not parrell to the limbs.

[Pyro43]

So I made some good progress today. I tried to implement what was mentioned, I hope I did a good job. It looks to me like it is bending well, and as far as I can tell I was able to get rid of the stiff area you mentioned J.F. Miller. What do you think?

I decided I may go a little lighter than the 70#s I was originally shooting for. Based on the reading I've done, a 55-60# bow will still take down some big game. And those few extra pounds will make a big difference on the length of my practice sessions. I was wanting originally to make the heavy weight hunting bow that will be my go to for the next years, But decided right now getting more practice in will do me better. All the practice will help me build up some more strength anyway, so I can use an 70-75# bow for an afternoon, instead of just for 20-30 arrows. I guess I'll just have to make me another bow before too long   .

Here is what the bow looks like progressing from braced relaxed to what draw I'm at as of tonight, that being 24", at 24 I'm pulling 62#s.

   
   
   
   
   
   

Any thoughts?

I'm hoping to get the tiller about done tomorrow and to start shaping the handle. When I do I'll work to make the fades more gradual like several people have pointed out, I should be able to make that transition less drastic without affecting the handle I was looking to get.

Thanks for your feedback, it's been helping a lot. And sorry if I've forgotten to do something you mentioned, did a bad job of implementing it, or just plain choose not to do it for whatever reason. I of course mean no disrespect and appreciate the help and patience as I learn.

Chris

[macbow]

Chris, first of all I think your certainly getting the idea.
On the weight take it from a guy that is a living example.
55 to 60 pounds will take,any game in the USA.

After many years of shooting heavier bows my shoulders are paying the price and I'm into 40 plus,pound bows.
Shoot a reasonable weight and shoot it well.

I suggest there is still a little room for improvement on the right limb. Maybe 6 to 8 inches from the fade is a little session arc than the left limb. Very shuttle and would not need to be address unless your still removing weight or sanding for smoothness. I can't see how well your edges, all of them are rounded. This is important,to keep any splinters at bay.

[Pyro43]

Well Macbow, though I be a proud one, I'm still willing to learn   . I think the thing that really got me to drop my weight a bit, of the bow that is, though I could use a little drop too lol, is that good form is supposed to be harder to develop on a heavier bow, which makes sense. Once I feel my form is down well, and I'm shooting the groups I want, I'll revisit the weight thing, but like you said a 55# bow will take down most any large game.

To clarify you mean to say my right limb still has a stiff spot? I think that's what you mean, but I wanted to make sure, I'd hate to make a hinge worse. And I do round all my edges, but only about a 1/16th to 1/8th inch round over. How much do you do on your bows?

I've seen some bows where the whole back is rounded like a half circle. It made sense to me to keep the rounded corners as small as possible, in order to keep as much material working as possible, meaning to not make the sides too much thinner so they work just as hard as the center of the limb.

[Pyro43]

So here we are. Not much can be done now, so I hope it is as good as I think it looks.

   

It is right around 65#s at the 27" mark on the tree, after working the handle down to shape, that will get me my 28" draw.

I used a better photo editor this time to overlay the left and right limbs onto each other after each adjustment, and got them almost dead on. My right limb is bending ever so much more, but the fulcrum pull point shows the limbs are equally timed/tillered. They seem to be well balanced as well, as they don't tip to either side at all, even when balanced on a point only 1" wide at the handle. I think that means they should be good to go.

I had a bit of a hinge about 2/3s of the way out on my right or upper limb, but as I worked down the last little bit of weight, I stayed away from that point and I think I got it under control. I suppose a few years of use will say for sure. Somehow when I shaped the limbs width, I didn't get them even on both sides, that's why the left lower limb looks thicker towards the tips, it's thicker to compensate for it being thinner width wise, some variance in the natural wood could be affecting that too. It isn't quite as bad as the picture makes it look, the shadows are deceiving, but I measured them with the calipers and there is some variance.

Anyway, I think she's a keeper. This is only my first bow so my experience is super limited, but I think she turned out a good as I could have hoped for. Though any comments and/or suggestions for this or my next bow are definitely appreciated.

On to final finessing, finishing, and then shooting.    

[Pyro43]

I had a couple more questions though before I get to that point. You guys with some experience will have a much better idea as to what I'm asking than I could hope to guess for.

Question one: Right now my nocks are about 7/16" wide. I haven't cut my groves on the sides yet, just a grove along the back of the bow to allow the string to seat. As I develop my nocks along the sides as well, what is the thinnest I should to go width wise? I've read of some going as thin as 1/4", but that seems pretty thin to me.

Question 2: I want to cut a shelf, as close to center as the wood has strength for. My handle is 1 3/8" wide and the point where the shelf will be cut is 2 1/4" deep. If I were to cut to center, or just past that would make the wood at that part of the bow about 7/8" wide by the 2.25" deep. Is that enough wood based on the weight of the bow? I don't want to risk any flexing, so I'll only cut the shelf as deep as you guys feel is safe.

Those are my two big concerns right now, at least till more show up if they do. Thanks in advance for the feedback.

Chris

[mikkekeswick]

I'd stay a 1/4 inch off center. Cut a wood only bow to center is asking for trouble due to the large grain violation. I'm sure it could be done but it is a risk. To cut to center and not have any worries you really need glass or similar running down the center of the riser (to eliminate any flex).
A 1/2 inch width nock is fine. So 7/16ths is fine. You could go narrower but the benefits will be minimal and you again would be taking risks - this time with stability and also making your bow bend too much in the outer limbs.
If you wanted to do 1/4 inch nocks then you should plan for it from the start with your thickness.

[Pyro43]

Thanks Mike. I shaped the shelf tonight, rough, I'll get some pictures tomorrow. I was wondering if I could go all the way to center, I'd rather be safe on this one, being my first, I went the 1/4" from center like you suggested.

The clarify on the nocks, I think I did a bad job of phrasing my question now that I read over it. My limb tips are already down to 7/16". I haven't cut any nocks yet, just a channel or groove on the back side of the bow, the side facing away from you, that kept the string in place while I tillered the bow.

My question is, is if there is enough wood left to cut nocks or grooves into the tips? Once I make the grooves for the string, I'll have maybe 1/4" of wood width wise, if I don't make the string grooves too deep. Most of the nocks I've seen on others peoples bows have grooves on the back of the bow and down the two sides, so there are three faces the string is seated against. I'm worried I may have made my tips to thin, and so I should just stick with a nice groove along the back of the tips, and not make any groove along the sides. Does that makes sense? If not I'll take some pictures to illustrate.

[J.F. Miller]

Originally posted by J.F. Miller:
having the ability to blend the working limb into the non-working handle with some finesse is major benefit toward achieving the best tiller possible. you cannot do that very well with a handle like you have now. I'll see if I can rustle up some pics to demonstrate.

   

having a more gradual transition from working limb to rigid handle provides adequate space to negotiate tiller in one of the more difficult and critical(imo) areas. the 6" above and below the 4" leather handle is where this negotiation takes place. depending on the bows' design, composition, length, target draw weight, etc., more or less of the glued on riser is consumed. often there is much less left that you see in the second pic. the shorter your bow, the more important this "dip" area becomes. this is an area I still tend to struggle with on D/R bows. is a little easier on straight bows.

as with any design, making the dips and flares coincide for proper mass placement needs to be considered.

[macbow]

Eldon, it sounds like your tip width will be just,fine.
On the groove across the back just don't go deep enough to go through all the overlay.

The side grooves just need to be deep enough to fit the string.
The thickness from back to front which was embellished by the overlay is where the strength is.