First Time Bowyer Advice

[deadsilence]

Hello All,
I am a new member and this is my first post so go easy on me.  My grandfather is wonderful with wood, having built 3 guitars, 2 dobros, countless pieces of furniture, etc.  Since I am an avid hunter, I thought it would be an awesome project for him and I to undertake and would be a great heirloom for future generations to build a long bow.  I already have several recurves that my other grandfather has given me.

My big question is where to start?  we have some good cedar stave's and we can probable get what ever else we need.  He really wants to laminate the handle to make it pretty, so what wood combinations are good and what are the pros and cons of laminating.  Can anyone recommend good books or dvds to get us started.  I have watched many youtube videos but everyone seems to just jump into rasping and tillering.  No initial picking of the wood besides "this is osage".  Any help would be greatly appreciated.  A similar post on AT was curtly ignored in the traditional section  :(

Thanks for the look, looking forward to some good information from the folks who know it the best.

[monterey]

Welcome. I promise you won't be ignored here.  This is the most helpful and civil bow building board on the net.

That said, my bows are mostly wood/glass lam.  Your post seems like you want to build a ALL wood laminate bow.  I think others here are better qualified to help you.

I'm looking forward to seeing some pics of a great bow.

[LittleBen]

Ok let's start off with recommended reading. I think we would all suggest the traditional Bowyers Bible serious. There are volumes 1-4, but volume 1 or vols. 1-2 will give you a good start and will address selecting bow wood, drying, tillering the bow, bows from board lumber, and other topics.

For a first bow I would recommend you make a board (lumber) bow, or a backed lumber bow.

If you want to make a backed bow I would recommend a backing of hickory, and a core (belly) wood of osage if possible. If osage lumber is not available or within your budget, I would recommend Ipe if you can get it. If not, then I would make a hickory backed hickory bow.

You could also start most simply with a hickory board bow. Hickory with good straight grain can make a very solid bow.

There are a number of good board bow build alongs on the net you can find. I'm on iPad so posting links is a pain, but perhaps others wil have those resources handy. Also you can search and find them easily.

Board bows can be made from red oak, white oak, hard maple, ash, or hickory as well as some other woods, but those are probably the most common.
I recom,end hickory because it has the greatest tension strength and I think is a better wood to start with personally.

You could make a bow from a stave (a section of a split log of 6' length) but unless it's perfectly straight without and twist or wiggles, it can be challenging to tiller the bow well enough on your first try.

Hope that helps. Give us some idea what you know and what other information you're looking for .... Hopefully some veterans will chime in with good advice.

[John Scifres]

I recommend "Hunting the Osage Bow" book and "Hunting the Bamboo Backed Bow" video by Dean Torges.  bowyersedge.com

The book goes from start to finish on making a selfbow and the video covers backed bows.  I would bet your grandpa would get a kick out of Dean's style.

[KenH]

A classic for the days when we didn't have all the fancy technology is The Flatbow by Ben Hunt & John Metz, (c) 1936.  It's available free at the Archery Library:

 http://www.archerylibrary.com/books/flatbow/

[mikkekeswick]

Ben is dead on with his advice.
You must pick a virtually perfect straight grained board to start with. Straight edge straight!
I recommend what is known as a pyramid bow as they are the easiest tiller-wise to read correctly.

[takefive]

X 2 on the Bowyer's Bible series and particularly Vol. 1.  Also "Hunting the Osage Bow."  Even if you're using a different wood than Osage, it's a great read with a lot of good information.  I've heard a lot of guys recommend the "Rattlestick" DVD by Gary Davis, but I haven't seen it yet.
Cedar is not good bow wood.  Eastern Red Cedar (actually a Juniper) can be, but it's tricky stuff to work with.  Lots of knots and it usually needs to be backed.  Not a good choice for a first bow.  Osage, hickory, or hard maple would be much better bets.
If you decide to start with a board bow, there is some good info on this site:

 http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/archer.html

Here's a popular one from TG for a pyramid bow:

 http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=002064

[monterey]

Ken, thanks for that link.  Was my first visit there. It is a treasure trove

[deadsilence]

Thanks for the links and the advice.  I think the board bow build from takefive will be an excellent starting place.  The build was really well laid out and I like the plans a lot.  I would like to have a shelf built into the bow and for the base of the limbs to be a little slimmer in profile.  Would it be feasable to make those modifications to those plans?  Thinking out loud here, I'm guessing you would have to leave more thickness on the limbs to if you were going to slim the width?  What changes would you have to make in order put a shelf on that bow?

[Scott F]

Can't go wrong with "Hunting the Osage Bow".  I haven't even attempted a selfbow in years, but I go back and reread this book and watch his DVD from time to time anyhow.  Dean is a great author and a great story teller.  I wish him well in his recovery.

[takefive]

Was it the bend through the handle red oak board bow from George's site?  I'm sure you could modify it to a rigid handle and narrow the outer limbs.  The rigid handle will make tillering a little harder; you'll want more of an elliptical tiller, but if that's the bow you want to make, go for it.  The type of wood you use and the draw weight that you want it to be will determine how wide your bow should be at the fades.
I don't cut a shelf in, so don't have any advice on that.  Maybe someone else will chime in.
Once you decide on the wood and draw weight somebody will have some suggestions.

[LittleBen]

Originally posted by deadsilence:
Thanks for the links and the advice.  I think the board bow build from takefive will be an excellent starting place.  The build was really well laid out and I like the plans a lot.  I would like to have a shelf built into the bow and for the base of the limbs to be a little slimmer in profile.  Would it be feasable to make those modifications to those plans?  Thinking out loud here, I'm guessing you would have to leave more thickness on the limbs to if you were going to slim the width?  What changes would you have to make in order put a shelf on that bow?

Youve got plenty of time to worry about the shelf. The easiest thing to do is glue on a couple layers of leather where you want the shelf, soak them in superglue, and shape them i to a small arrow shelf. Or you can cut a shelf into the handle but that always introduces a weak point and I wouldn't recommend it for a first bow generally. If you do want to make a cut in shelf, make the handle area a little thicker. The build along shows gluing on one extra board thickness (1.5" total)for the handle, i would say you would probably need to add two thicknesses so you be starting with 2.25" total thickness in the handle. This shouldn't be your primary concern right now. Focus on making a good durable bow that survives. That's number 1.

Regarding the width of the limbs at the "base". The base of the limbs we would refer to as the 'fades' in other words the area where the handle blends I to the limbs. In general, you cant just make a limb thicker to get more draw weight. If you make the limb too thick, it will either break, or just take a horrendous amount of set. Generally for a given bow length, and draw length, (in other words for a given amount of bending radius in the limb) there is an ideal thickness which is basically the maximum thickness before things start to go south. So to answer your question, yes you can make the limbs more narrow, but no you shouldn't make them thicker to compensate. You would just need to make the bow proportionally lower in draw weight.

If you want to make narrower limbs, you need to use a better wood. For example, hickory board would allow you to make a more narrow bow than red oak, both bows being otherwise the same (including limb thickness!).

Lastly remember, there is no formula for limb thickness, it's unlikely you can just cut the thickness down to a line and have a good tiller. You're going to need to carefully scrape on he belly side of each limb to get them bending nicely.
If you post pictures frequently throughout your build and ask questions, you'll get all the help you need here.

[deadsilence]

This is the post I was referring to.

 http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=002064

I am not a very experienced stick bow shooter so I would prefer to have a lower pound draw weight on the first one in order to practice on form.  Maybe a 40-45lb, the recurves that I have now are a 50lb and a 60lb and while I can shoot the 50lb well enough I think a 40-45lb would really help with form and practice.  With that being said I have a decently long draw (monkey arms).  I normally shoot 29-29.5 on my wheel bows.  I just measured and holding a tape measure like I hold a bow and drawing to the corner of my mouth with my index finger (this is where my tab touches when i shoot, 1 over, 2 under) is 28.25.  So using a good red oak slat like in the link pasted above, is there a good starting point for 40-45lbs around that mark?

Sorry for the ignorance, please feel free to correct anything I have misstated or is incorrect.  Thanks for all the help

[LittleBen]

Honestly with red oak I would keep the length the same as in the link, and maybe build it 2.5" wide, maybe 2.25".

Building it slightly wider than needed give you some safety margin and will have a negligible result on performance.

If you go too narrow your bow is much less likely to survive.

If you enjoy making them you will likely make many more and you will learn a lot from a successful build.

[takefive]

That 4est trekker pyramid bow build along is great!  I followed it for my first bow.  I'd take Ben's advice and make it 2 1/4" wide at the fades.  Then follow the build along.  Your board is 3/4" thick and glueing on another 3/4" for the handle gives you 1 1/2" which is a good thickness.  
I made a hickory backed maple pyramid awhile back.  It was 1 7/8" wide at the fades.  I make an offset handle that's 1" wide at the arrow pass, so the arrow sits very close to center.  It was 5/8" thick at the end of the handle fades, then pretty quickly to 1/2" and a bit thinner out at the tips after tillering.
I posted it on PA where I lurk as GB.  

 http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,53271.msg721954.html#msg721954

[deadsilence]

takefive, that is a really good looking bow!  That seems like what i had in mind when i envisioned building a longbow.  Do you happen to have some plans or measurements for that style of handle?  Would red oak, like in the pyramid bow build, work for this style or would we have to back it with some other wood?

[Mark R]

Sounds like your grandfather is skilled and  knows his way with wood,and has the right tools,you don't have to limit yourself to a board bow,they do take time and expertise to craft correctly and I've made one and it turned out pretty good but that was after I made a glass laminated mild R/D longbow and a highbred longbow.Yes it took a little longer because i had to make a form,but it was well worth the time because I have two forms to make many more and it is easier and much more efficient to make more bows after the initial form is made.Just something to think about.Bowyers bible 1 thru 4 will help and also this website has alot of info.  Have a good journey.

[Mark R]

The crafting of a sound Bow no matter what type is a journey,its so satisfying to me that I cannot imagine not  continuing to create the working piece of art.

[takefive]

Thanks deadsilence!
Red oak will work fine as long as it's a good straight grained board.  You'll probably search through a lot of boards at your lumberyard before you find one good enough for a bow.  If they have hickory, I'd look through those.  You still want straight grain, but a little run off or run up on hickory isn't a problem.  It's stronger wood than red oak.
I laid out my handle on a board.  Hope you can see the measurements okay.  I make mine 9 to 10" long just because I like the fades to be a bit longer with a more gradual slope.  A lot of guys make them 8".  It's just personal preference IMO.  
If you make your bow 2 1/4 or 2 1/2" wide, I wouldn't go any narrower than half that thickness at the arrow pass.  I haven't had any of my bows twist from the way I make the handle, but you never know.
I've only made one red oak board bow and it was fine unbacked.  I've seen them backed with rawhide, linen, silk, brown paper, etc., I guess mainly to keep a splinter from lifting.
The reason I back mine with hickory is to glue in some reflex.  I suffer from the delusion that it will make a faster bow.   :rolleyes:
Let me know if you have any question about the handle, etc.
Glad to help if I can, as are the other guys on here.

 

 

[takefive]

Forgot to add that this handle from the roughed in bow is 9 1/2" long, 1 1/2" thick and 1" wide at the arrow pass.  It's is a bit narrower at the bottom of the handle than I usually make them.  Probably don't have two of them that turned out exactly the same.