Old bows

[Jon LOW]

So I am very new to bow making (making my first right now) and archery in general and I have a few questions.

First, how successful were laminated bows before using the heat set epoxy? Is the success/quality of the bows drastically different when using the epoxy over outdoor wood glue?

Second I understand that fiberglass and other man made materials are standard now in bow making, but wood was used for thousands of years. So what makes the fiberglass so much better? Also, how did they make successful bows before fiberglass?

Lastly is there any good resource for this type of information anywhere?

[passion for knowledge]

I've had success with Titebond 3 for my two laminated bows.

Both have at least a couple of hundred arrows to their credit.

Maple backed ipe and hickory, maple ipe tri lam.

Working on a 'boo backed ipe at the moment. Used epoxy for this one as I needed more open time.

I know pretty much zero about fibreglass bows.

[wood carver 2]

I have bows glued up with epoxy and with TB3. There is no noticeable difference in longevity or performance.
If I'm using any kind of manmade fibers in my glue up, then I will only use epoxy. All wood or wood/bamboo bows, I use TB3 with no worries.
Dave.

[jess stuart]

I know very little about wood bows, have only built a very few.  I feel like wood bows take much more expertise than a glass laminated bow.  The biggest advantage of fiberglass is being to use a recipe and come very close to the desired draw weight.  Fiberglass allows the use of many types woods for a core without giving up durability.  I would like to try more wooden bows but, live in a desert when it comes to good bow woods.

[mwosborn]

You will get a lot of opinions on the question of wood bows and fiberglass bows.  

Don't get me wrong here...people can make some exceptional and durable all wood bows.  You only have to spend a few days in this forum to see that.

However, fiberglass made it much easier to mass produce high quality durable bows.  Fiberglass can take a lot more stress than wood so you can get away with shorter limbs, longer draw length, extreme designs, etc. without damage.

All wood bows are somewhat limited in what you can do - especially for an average amateur bowyer like myself.  In other words, you can't get away with many "flaws" when making wooden bows.  It takes a "craftsman".


As far as performance, it takes a pretty good bowyer to make a 50-55# wooden bow that can launch a hunting weight arrow at 180+ fps.  Most of my all wooden bows in that weight fall between 150 and 160 fps.  On the other hand, most all my fiberglass bows in that weight all hit close to the 180 fps or more.

Of course this is all JMO!    

[passion for knowledge]

There's an interesting video on youtube regarding penetration and lethality of small stone arrow points and low poundage bows.

I would think this is likely against hunting regs in many places (for sure where I am) but it shows you don't need huge amounts of power or arrow weight if your shot is accurate.

 

[LittleBen]

Let me sum my experience in laminated wood bows this way:

I am probably one of the few who build wood lam bows using a "recipe" for stack thickness the same way the glass guys do it.

It took me roughly 3 years of design iteration, and developing skills in bowyering to be able to build an all wood laminated bow that would approach the performance of a simple but well made fiberglass/wood core longbow,. A good fiberglass recurve or performance bow will still beat them every day.

My bows also probably won't last as long, take longer to make, require meticulous material selection, and more skill/care to tiller properly. Lastly, every time I change wood species, or even use a new board for laminations, the exact specifications that I need to use change and its hard to hit target draw weight without a lot of careful sanding/scraping.

Also let's not forget that no matter how fancy I try to get, I still have to use rather plain looking hickory on the back and a relatively limited number of good performing woods on the belly; no fancy veneers here.

The average guy who takes their time, and builds a proven design of a glass/wood bow, will end up with a bow that performs as well or better than mine and lasts a lot longer, and they can do all that on their first try typically.

So what makes fiberglass so much better? In a nutshell Its much more durable, much stronger, and much more consistent.

With all this said, I have numerous bows that have many many many shots through them (thousands of shots probably), and have hunted and been strung for many days, and still perform well and show little to no signs of wear, save maybe a bit more set than they started with. So even a wood bow is a very reasonably and practical hunting tool, and as long as it's well made, you can expect a very long life.

[KenH]

Welcome Jon;   There is a world of knowledge to be gained here, com drink at the well.

"Laminated" bows -- really called 'composite' bows -- have been made from wood-wood, wood-sinew, and horn-wood-sinew combinations for a three or more thousand years, and are still being made with the same materials and techniques today by dedicated bowyers (some of whom are even members here).

Long before there was Titebond or epoxy, there were fish bladder, hide, and other natural glues that did a great job holding things together; although they were not as waterproof as today's glues.

BTW -- you do NOT need to "heat set" modern epoxy, just keep it above 75F as it cures.

Really the only thing that makes fiberglass and epoxy "better" for bow making is that they are more waterproof/weather resistant.  Also, fiberglass and modern glues, plus modern tools mean  that you can make a perfectly functional bow in a day to two, rather than six months or a year or more -- great for those who like mass produced things.

All wood, or wood-wood composites still take a day or a week make, and the builder's modern tools are not that different from those used 5000-10,000 years ago.  Modern tools are steel and sand-on-paper; the olde timers' tools were bronze or flint and sand in the hand

[Mad Max]

X2
Ken and ben

[Jon LOW]

Thanks for all the advice, I am making the limbs of my takedown right now, on my second try, I guess I wasn't too discerning on my wood choice, it cracked right away... I am assuming it was just a bad idea, but I thought that flamed maple would look great on the front of the limbs and guess what cracked...

[Sant-Ravenhill]

Really appreciated Ben and Kens posts...Factual, succinct, backed by lots of experience. Thank you.

[mikkekeswick]

Fiberglass isn't 'so much better'! It is just different  
Making a fiberglass bow is a bit like painting by numbers! If you follow the numbers you will end up with a fine bow that will outlast you.
Wooden bows take a 'little longer' to master but to be fair if you have a good teacher and don't want to make all the potential mistakes yourself a great, very durable bow can be made in a day. As Ben stated you can also make wood lam bows to a 'recipe' but there are more variables.
I would say that the average wood bow and the average glass bow have about 10 - 15 fps difference in speed. My best wooden selfbows shoot around 180 - 185fps @ 10gpp. You have to get a fancypants glass bow that is faster than that.
Horn/wood/sinew composites which have been made for thousands of years will give even better speeds as horn/wood/sinew can store more energy per mass than wood alone but they are a different animal altogether and it takes years to come close to mastering them.

[KenH]

BTW -- mikkekeswick has done a pretty darn good job of "mastering" wood-horn-sinew bows.He's certainly more than a journeyman when it comes to those composites.