A Dose of Humility

[YosemiteSam]

Just for kicks yesterday, I strung up the 30# limbs on my Samick Sage to shoot a few at light poundage.  To my dismay, the arrows were shooting slightly faster than my recent board bow (Clay Hayes design) that draws a little over 50#.  I switched back and forth between them for several rounds to confirm and even used a clicker strapped on the board bow to make sure I was getting a full draw out of it.  It has become obvious that my 30# recurve is a better hunting weapon than my 50# board bow.  I was shooting the same 450 grain arrow out of each.  I never expected my board bows to perform as well as my recurves at similar draw weights.  But to be 20# heavier in draw weight and still marginally slower seems like a bowyer issue.

Guess I'm back to the drawing board to see if I can boost the performance edge a bit more.  Figure I'll start with some backset & tip flipping.  Any other easy or more obvious ways to boost up the speed angle?

[Wolftrail]

Something does not seem right here.  A bow 20# heavier shooting slower.   I have a selfie that has 2" of natural reflex and maybe 1" of set, it seems to lob the arrows at any given distance.  It pulls 40# but shoots like a 30# bow.    :rolleyes:

[YosemiteSam]

Granted, my recurve puts the back 2-3" past the grip, effectively extending the draw length.  The back of a board bow is only about 1" past the grip (bendy-handle), counting the leather wrap.  I don't think that's the main advantage but it probably adds an extra bit of draw stroke to the recurve.

[monterey]

I don't think the claye hayes design is the most efficient you could build.  The design seems to be oriented toward getting the new builder to a successful bow.  Same thing with the Tim Baker "your first bow" (approximate quote).

one of my 68" glass lam 41# hunting ASLs shoots a 675 grain arrow at 137 fps.  My first of RD design at the same 41# shoots the same exact arrow at 156 fps.  

Don't kick yourself, it's all about design.

[BMorv]

Check out Bowyer's Bible 4, performance revisited section, if you haven't already.  
Excessive mass in the outer limbs is a huge speed robber.  
Have you tried a pyramid style board bow?  It's an efficient design.

[TradBowyer]

don't beat yourself up. I've tested lots of bows and have yet to see a wood shoot with a glass bow and you are doing massive extremes...a wood self bow vs a glass recurve. but the funnier thing is if you post a question about killing power most will say that your self bow will take down anything in North America but then turn around and say your recurve is too light to be an effective killing machine lol

[BMorv]

I'm not sure if you are using fast flight, but that added on average 7 fps to my bows.  5% performance increase for just changing the string, sign me up....
And you open up a whole new world when you start backing bows.  Check out yellowwoods plain jane bamboo backed hickory.  3" of glued in reflex and good tillering got him over 170 fps.  That's way faster than your 30# Samick.

[YosemiteSam]

Originally posted by BMorv:
Check out Bowyer's Bible 4, performance revisited section, if you haven't already.  
Excessive mass in the outer limbs is a huge speed robber.  
Have you tried a pyramid style board bow?  It's an efficient design.

Yes, my first few were all pyramids.  No doubt, my last pyramid bow was probably my fastest shooter and it only drew about 40#.  But, having learned a few things since then, I'll be trying it again soon.

Thanks for the encouragement.  I still think I have a lot to learn.  But if I didn't like to struggle, I wouldn't still be hunting either.

[YosemiteSam]

Originally posted by TradBowyer:
but the funnier thing is if you post a question about killing power most will say that your self bow will take down anything in North America but then turn around and say your recurve is too light to be an effective killing machine lol

That thought had crossed my mind as well.

[jsweka]

The fact you see a difference in performance isn't all that surprising to me.  Those are two bows at complete ends of the spectrum of energy transfer to an arrow.  Just the nature of things.  Two different beasts.

Here's a question for you: Were you happy with the way the board bow shot before you made a direct comparison to the Samick?  If so, does it really matter?

[Forwardhandle]

Thanks Bmorv for the mention but the guy that taught me self bow making was big into the mass principal so I credit him but I was making medeocre speed bows untill I started paying attention to mass placement and keep in mind Im drawing to 30 in. Thats why I use heavy hunting arrows when I test speed to make it fair but the lever bow in the pic is also a 46 lb self bow thats only slightly reflexed and its hitting 173-175 fps with a 509 grain arrow but it took alot of work to get the last 2-3 fps I actually got the tips to light to the point of starting to bend fourtunatly I heat treated them stiff again those two bows where my 2017 hunting bows    https://imgur.com/a/KQ4GA

[YosemiteSam]

Originally posted by jsweka:

Here's a question for you: Were you happy with the way the board bow shot before you made a direct comparison to the Samick?  If so, does it really matter?

Can't say that I was totally thrilled with the bow from a hunting standpoint.  Shoots okay.  There's a lot of hand shock & it's very unforgiving.  But I learned a little about bendy handles and rawhide backing, which was why I did the build along in the first place -- to learn something new.  Not having flung an arrow at a deer yet, let alone through one, I try not to guess too much about it's effectiveness for hunting.  I just figured that if 30# is too light on the recurve, then this one is a no-go for hunting, regardless of the heavier draw weight.

[Forwardhandle]

What wood & length is your bendy ?

[John Malone]

All my wooden bows shoot just as fast as my glass recurves one of which is a Sage, about 6 arrows a minute. So I'm happy.

[YosemiteSam]

Originally posted by Yellowwood:
What wood & length is your bendy ?

It’s a rawhide backed maple at 70” T2T.

[BMorv]

Yellowwood, I’ve seen the mass principle mentioned a lot on PA but not much here.  Can you explain the basis of what you learned about it?  I think it would help this discussion.

[Forwardhandle]

I love to work with maple it's a great wood I have a couple of maple staves hanging in the shop I got 2 years ago don't feel bad Yosemite my first couple of bows where slugs the first one is still hanging on the wall it was 75 lb and probably doing 125 fps bounced arrows off the target...lol  Bmorv I'm more of a fly by the seat kind of guy then technical but the mass principal part that helped me was Steve A  & Tim B thoughts on limb mechanics meaning the limbs are doing progressively less work towards the tips I think it was Tim B said put the mass where it's needed and none where not it's a hard topic to cover in a single post I think it boils down to there is a certain amount of wood needed for a given design and if your above that you get a slow bow if your bellow it you get a broke bow  and if your just right you get a fast bow, 3 bears principal....lol

[Roy from Pa]

Thinner lighter tips, " less mass ", ='s a faster bow.

[Forwardhandle]

Yep and the upper mid limb to it always surprises me on self bows how much mass is still in the upper mid limb when weighing the bow as you go mass wise that you can take off with out effecting the bend especially with dense woods like osage interesting topic I think squeezing the last FPS is a real balancing act but fun but your really on a tight rope I leave the tips for last because I can usually bail my self out with self bows using heat to stiffen or worst add wood on leaver bows I can usually get a extra 2 fps by putting a 1/4 shim in front of the leaver fades and heat in some minor reflex any reflex in front of the handle even if it's minor really helps with speed and early draw with those R/D you make Roy have to have some good speed with the early draw weight , I would try one if I knew how to tiller one !

[George Tsoukalas]

I don't know. All I know is that all wooden bows have been taking game for many millennia. Jawge