A Dose of Humility

[canopyboy]

Originally posted by John Malone:
All my wooden bows shoot just as fast as my glass recurves one of which is a Sage, about 6 arrows a minute. So I'm happy.

[John Malone]

Seriously Sam, ive got a #35 Polaris that will smoke my mid  #40 and my #50 straight limb red oak wood bows. In a way its depressing but they are two totally different bows. I did the comparison with my #55 sage and my #58 hickory, not as fast. But it will sink the same arrow just as deep in a hay bail so 6 arrows a minute is good enough for me.

[BMorv]

Yeah to each his own. Most bows we make will take down big game with a well placed arrow.  I just like tinkering with different designs within my abilities to see if I’m making more efficient changes and getting better at making bows. The cold quick truth lies in the chrono results.  I don’t really care if glass bows are faster than mine, I just want my current one to be better than my last one.  It’s what makes it exciting for me.  
Yeah yellowwood that’s my understanding of mass priciple too.  Only have wood where it is needed and no where where it isn’t.  Easier said than done.  I’ve been playing around with no set tillering also, which goes hand in hand with mass principle.  
Try and do most of your work in the inner and mid limbs and leave the outer limbs just thick enough to not bend. Outer limbs only store like 7% of the energy anyway.
All of these theories are easier said than done. Lol.

[BMorv]

That was a good one John.    

[Forwardhandle]

I'm with you Bmorv I just use the Chrono as a guide I'm not trying to make the fastest bow on the block just trying to make the best one I can I would use any bow that shoots 150 fps for hunting dear I think by working on mass on a certain design and ones you find it you can repeat it but I think the bows that have the mass in the right places end up being the most durable and least stressed but I don't think I could ever make a wood bow as fast as my Black Widow recurve but I enjoy getting all I can out of the wood like you say each his own .

[John Malone]

I'm with you guys, after my first attempt at a bow I knew making a bow would be just like shooting one. Hit a pine cone at 30 yrds gotta hit the next one at 31yrds its a never ending quest to be just a lil better than ya were yesterday. That's the fun part for me. I don't own a Chrono so I use my recurves as a comparison.

[John Scifres]

My two cents are that a 70" rawhide backed maple bow is a fine, overbuilt, safe bow that will probably last.  To compare it to a modern glass recurve is a bit unfair, regardless of weight difference.

You can definitely get closer to glass bow performance if that is your aim.  There are very efficient designs that you should try.

[YosemiteSam]

Originally posted by John Malone:
Seriously Sam, ive got a #35 Polaris that will smoke my mid  #40 and my #50 straight limb red oak wood bows. In a way its depressing but they are two totally different bows. I did the comparison with my #55 sage and my #58 hickory, not as fast. But it will sink the same arrow just as deep in a hay bail so 6 arrows a minute is good enough for me.

I suppose that I am still using FF string on the Samick so maybe it's more similar to a 35# glass recurve vs 50# overbuilt board bow.  I've never doubted the recurve's ability to sink an arrow into game if needed.  I've just known it wasn't ideal.

Seems like my mental anchor may be off.  I've anchored on 40# recurve speeds as minimum.  Sounds like if I anchor on the 50# board bow, then just about all recurves (drawn to 28") are all just extra insurance from a hunting standpoint.

Guess I'll be going back to the pyramid design or at least starting the taper no further than mid limb.  So much the better.  I like the looks of the pyramid design better anyway.

[John Malone]

Sam, Have you tried going parallel for 6 inches then taper. Roy turned me on to that lay out. Extra wood were ya need it most, less wood were ya don't. That layout shot way better at #43 than my  #50 flat bow that I went to an inch past midlimb with, both red oak..' There could have been other factors but they were basically the same bow just started the taper in different spots. Easer to get some weight on it to than the pyramids of the same width.

[YosemiteSam]

Originally posted by John Malone:
Sam, Have you tried going parallel for 6 inches then taper. Roy turned me on to that lay out. Extra wood were ya need it most, less wood were ya don't. That layout shot way better at #43 than my  #50 flat bow that I went to an inch past midlimb with, both red oak..' There could have been other factors but they were basically the same bow just started the taper in different spots. Easer to get some weight on it to than the pyramids of the same width.

Haven't tried that yet.  I can see that being particularly good for a 1.5" wide board.

[BMorv]

I was talking about a true pyramid.  Like 2" at the fades straight taper to tiny tips, about 3/8", circular tiller, thin the last 7" while leaving it just stiff enough not to bend much.  It puts the mass where you want it.  That's if you wanted to stick with a board bow.    
Maybe Scifres can suggest an efficient design.  He knows what he's talking about (a lot more than me).

[John Malone]

Yea I forgot to mention all my stuff was around 1.5 wide. That's just what lowes had. I personally don't like the looks of a 2inch wide pyramid but one day I will make one. I heard they were great if done right.

I just saw this thread...  Pretty interesting...  

   The first two bows I made were a 30# and a 50# oak self bows... My 30# bow kept bouncing arrows off the target...  I got me a chrony and the 50# was shooting at 150fps...  I bought out this old 40#  solid fiberglass bow that I had since I was a kid and it shot 160fps...  Ever since then there was a need for speed and I have been building fiberglass laminate bows... Its gonna be hard to beat glass with wood...  Comparing two glass bows it's about efficiency... Like you said, putting the mass in the right spots...
   I had an argument with my buddy... He said a heavier draw bow would always shoot faster than a lighter draw bow...  I said he was wrong... I said it was how the bow was built...  Needless to say, he thought I was full of chit...  I said bring your bow over...  To make a long story short...  He had a 50# PSE long bow...  I had my 42# long bow... Both were glass laminate bows... We shot 410 gr. arrows...  His bow shot 170fps and mine shot 190 fps...  Even with a heavier arrow mine was still faster... It's hard enough making a glass bow fast I can't even imagine trying to soup up an all wood bow... That would take some doing and it would be hard to be consistent...

   If you want to set your goals high on an all wood bow there was a guy on the wtt 3 contest on POA that did pretty good...  I think he was shooting in the high 170's at 10gpp...  I think he had a boo backed bow...

[John Scifres]

I've never really concerned myself with speed.  I'd read TBB4 - the design and the mass principle chapters and TBB1 - the design chapter and you can go from there.

My fastest bows are sinew backed shorties but they don't have great shooting manners.  

Something with good wood (read that as osage), a flat belly, and narrowed, lever tips (static recurves or molle/holmegard) in the 62" range would be my all-around choice.

[John Malone]

Souping up a wood bow, I like it. I love my glass recurves and will never give them up. but when thinking of making my own bow wood is the only material that interest me. When I was younger I was  the guy who liked passing mustangs and Camaros in a primer gray 72 international pickup truck, had it modified and shoved a  426  from a totaled  coronet down in there courtesy of my uncle the mechanic. Damn I miss that truck.

[BMorv]

Check out Marc St Louis on PA and find his website if you’re interested in all wood bows and speed.  I don’t think he makes bows that shoot under 170 fps.  I need a drool rag when I look at his builds.

[YosemiteSam]

For me, it’s less about getting max speed so much as adequate speed. A 20-yard or even 15-yard Point-on is no concern to me so long as it comes from a heavy arrow. It has less to do with trajectory & FPS and more to do with hunting ethics & knowing I can still poke 2 holes in a critter.

[Forwardhandle]

I made a bendy Hickory bow a while back that shot a 520 grain arrow at only 152 fps with B50 and I skiped a arrow off the bag and it blew threw both sides of my back pvc fence door and landed in the back yard all though my wife wasn't happy it convenced me it would blow threw a White tail !

[BMorv]

I hear you Yosemite.  Just for clarification, all of the speeds that I mention are with at least 10 gpp arrows.  Anything less than that you aren't replicating a hunting situation, so it doesn't matter to me.  Who cares how fast you can shoot a toothpick.  
     
One thing I don't believe was talked about much on this thread is minimizing set.  The 1st 3 bows I made are all sluggish, and they have one thing in common: they all took 2+ inches of set.  They don't necessarily have bad tillers either (well not all of them).  Something that Mikkeekeswick said in one of his post was "keep thinking fresh belly wood".  That stuck in my mind for some reason.  I now make sure that I have a nice even bend with no weak spots before I stress the wood.  So on the long string or floor tiller stage you want to have a bend that is really close to what it's going to look like when it's done, before you bring it to brace.  If you bring it to brace too early you could have already induced irreversible set that won't go away even if you fix the tiller later in process.  I didn't pick up on those concepts on my 1st few.  I believe almost any design built with little set will perform to the expectations you mentioned.  Check out "no set tillering" by Badger on PA if you want to take it a step further.    

Sorry if you already know this information. I'm just trying to help as I've been there.

[John Malone]

Good point Bmorv. I learned that quick, think my first had 3 inches at least.