BROADHEAD, serrated or smoooth?

[NorthShoreLB]

One of my favorite quotes is "I DON'T WANT TO SHAVE THEM, I WANT TO KILL THEM !!!!" by John Shultz.

Now it's hard to not agree with the superior penetration capability given by razor sharp heads.


My argument starts when I look at veins and arterys, extremely tought and elastic, I belive that a serrated edge is far superior in cutting them, a good example is the tomato, ever tryed cutting thru one even with an extemely sharp knife ?
...well you'll realise soon that the sking bends but don't break, now, with very little pressure cut with a serrated edge knife, and bingo you're in business.

I wish someone made a heavy glue on, serrated edge head,...I'll be theyr first costumer,.... at the time being I have to be happy to use the Hill method.

I can't tell I ever had a penetration problen, even on big pigs, but I had shot a bit back a few times, and still bagged the critter, .....maybe because of the ease the head cut veins and arterys          


Now I know that I wont have many of you in my camp on this one, but I belive that an healthy dabate is always informative and makes us all the wiser.

M

[Bowferd]

I love debate. As an old retired meat cutter, I will debate you on the quality of steel. Serrated like the ginsu knives is a great idea for someone who doesn't know how to sharpen and keep a blade. Good old carbon steel will take an edge and hold it, if you know what you are doing.
 The stainless blades of 440c and better are darn good products for the average consuner. But they don't hold a candle to good old carbon.
 Just my personal opinion.

[robertson]

Serrated for me :

I have recovered my grissly broadhead several times in the dirt behind few game and the blade was still sharp.

I use a backquiver and i have seen that the serrated edge seems to hold its edge better than a razor one, i will think , it should be the same on game specially on our " tough " wildboar when the skin is full of dirt and mud.
Just an opinion

[Drummer@Home]

I'm in your camp    I shoot ribtec's. I'll take a file and put 3 to 4 serrations in the last third of the blade. Then file shapen on a home made block to hold the files and long angels.  I love that ruff but sharp fell you get. Cut your finger with that and it wont close and bleeds like the dickens.

[NorthShoreLB]

Hey, can you post a picture of your broadhead ?

sound interesting !!

[SlowBowinMO]

I've gone back and forth on this too, I can see both sides so I'm going to try the new BuzzCuts this year.  Instead of wondering I'm just gonna shoot and find out!

I am pretty confident though, one of my hunting buds shot the serrated Steel Force heads for several years.  It was my opinion his bloodtrails were consistently better than average.       He was shooting 4 blades though, I'm going to try the 2 blade.

[Sharpster]

It has often been said that serrated blades are the best choice for cutting rope, vegetables, and bread.

Personally, I prefer a surgical edge for every cutting job except the bread, and even bread can be cut cleanly if the blade is thin and sharp   enough. I'm with Bowferd on this one.


Ron

[Ulysseys]

I use steel force serrated sabertooths - I never had a penetration issue and it leaves a decent wound.  Serrated for me.

   Bill

[BobW]

I think one of Ashby's reports spoke against serrated blades.....

[laddy]

Louis Armbruister, Zebra bows, once when we shooting at his house showed me how he does it.  Sharpens with a file, then with the file flipped pulls the narrow flat to pull a nasty burr.  i tried it on several deer. I was surprisedthat the burr usually stayed intact. I have always been told how sharpening  ahead like Hill will pull hair through a wound.  the only broadhead I have ever seen matted in hair was a razor sharp Thunderhead.  I also use razor sharp at times, I have a sense that with some hits and light bows, under forty, there may be a bit more penetration, but then through is through, so why worry on that point, worry about the knarly stuff.

[Naphtali]

Which cuts better: serrated edge whose serrations are clogged with tissue; or smooth edge?

[Jeremy]

All I can do is echo Bowferd and Sharpster on this.

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

From a medical standpoint, there is no question about which type of cut bleeds the longest and most freely; it's the one made by the thinnest, sharpest, smoothest edge. Why? Because the thinner, sharper and smoother the cutting edge the less of the tissue lining the blood vessel's inner wall is disrupted.

Disruption of the inner lining of the vessel wall initiates the release of the protein, prothrombin. Prothrombin is converted to the enzyme thrombin, through a reaction with the blood plasma. Thrombin catalyzes the conversion of fibrinogen to fibrin; the last step in coagulation of the blood. Coagulation stops or retards the rate of hemorrhaging; which is exactly what the bowhunter does not want to happen.

The greater the 'tearing effect' of the cutting edge, the more prothrombin released. The more prothrombin released, the more thrombin produced. The more thrombin there is, the more fibrinogen converted to fibrin. The more fibrin, the shorter the clotting time. The shorter the clotting time, the faster the rate of blood loss decreases. The faster the blood loss decreases, the less the total blood loss (per unit of time).

There isn't a highly significant difference when a major vessel is severed. Clotting alone isn't going to seal that off. However, there is credible medical evidence that if the shaft remains in the wound it contributes (applies) direct pressure on the wound. Furthermore, at least according to research by the Royal Academy of Veterinary Surgeons, if the arrow shaft remains in the wound AND the animal continues to move, pressure between shaft and wound is further increased. The combination of the two; direct pressure of the shaft on the wound and shortened clotting time; can result in hemorrhagic sealing, or near-sealing, of even substantial vessels; significantly retarding onset of physiologic shock and ensuing collapse. Sometimes these factors can even prevent the onset of shock and collapse.

Even with a pass-through hit, clotting time does, however, always become a very important factor when only small-diameter vessels have been severed; such as on a 'muscle-tissue only' hit, or a pure gut hit that misses the few major vessels. Recovering an animal after a 'muscle only' hit? Yes, it does sometimes happen, but requires (1) that the bleeding from the capillaries continue unabated and (2) careful and correct follow-up procedures are used.

I'll opt for an edge that's as sharp, smooth and thin as possible.

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

[Paul Mattson]

I use Steele Forces glue on 140 gr Saber Tooth on my wood arrows and 125 gr screw on for the carbons.  These are the best heads I have found.  Razor sharpe up front and  serrated on the back half.  You may be a little hard pressed finding the glue-on, but I just happen to have around 20 three packs laying around.

[Orion]

I always try to make my broadheads as sharp as possible and not serrated.  Always wondered, however, how much they might dull just cutting through hair, cartilege and rib before getting into the body cavity.  I suppose that has more to do with type and angle of bevel and thickness and hardness of the steel than the type of edge put on it.

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Jerry,

If you'll add the TYPE of steel into that, you could not be more correct! Not all steels are equal, regardless of how you treat, temper or sharpen them. You have to start with good ingredients to get good results.

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

[SlowBowinMO]

I have often wondered if serrated edges may perform better on bone.  I know when field dressing or butchering my hand saw is much more useful for cutting through bone than my straight edged knife.

[BobW]

S-B-MO,

on a repetitive motion (sawing) on the surface, sure, but not on a one time "push" into it.

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Tim,

There's a huge difference between the cutting action of a saw, as opposed to a slicing blade. It is the off-set and opposing cutting angles of the saw's teeth which 'chips away' the material being cut. A serrated slicing edge has nothing in common, mechanical-function wise, with a saw blade, other than that both can be used to cut things.

When I started out, and for many years thereafter, I used 'Hill type' serrations on my BH's. The more wound channels I checked out, the more convinced I became that they are not as effective, overall, as a very smooth and very sharp edge.

Will they kill game? You bet they will. Are the the most effective? I don't believe they are, for the reasons previously posted. On a pass-through hit through the thorax, I doubt that it makes very much difference which you use; either will be quickly lethal. It's the marginal hits, where every cc of blood loss might make a difference between recovery and loss that the thin, smmoth, razor-honed edge makes a difference.

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

[bm22]

" in god we trust, all others bring data"

i will have to go with the good Doctor on this one, give it to me as sharp and smooth as possible.

have you ever cut your self with a razor blade, i cut my finger several times, but one time in piticular it did't hurt at all but i seriously thouht i was going to bleed to death, it never stopped bleeding. I had to wrap my hand in a roll of toilet paper as tight as i could.

maybe in the short term there will be more blood loss do to the tearing effect but in the long run the pain and  blood clotting will stop the blood flow. it is only the long run when you really need to added blood. if it goes down in 40 yards anyone could find it. it is when the deer runs several hundred yards when you need all the blood you can get.