Hickory or Lam Birch?

[huntnut]

Ok I was going to go with carbons and or aluminums but deside to stay with woods, that what I was shooting llast year out of my ChekMate Attila. I was shooting POC but  the thing I don't like about them is the are to fragil. I'm thinking about ordering either Lam Birch from 3Rivers or find some place that has Hickory shafts. I have read that with hardwwod shaft you need to have a stiffer spine because they dont recuver from paridox (sp) as fast as POC. I looked on Kelly's chart and with 190-200gr head cut too 29" with a 53# draw I need 70-75 or 75-80 spine. I might have to drop tip weight if hardwoods have to be stiffer spine.

And before anyone says it, yes I know they are going to be heavy for a 53# recurve. Probably around 650-720 I'm guesing.

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

James,

Both are very good, and very, very tough. The hickory shafts are definitely the tougher of the two. Check with Bill at AMAW. He sometimes has hickory shafts. It's a shame that Troy Breeding's aren't availabe any longer. They were great shafts. I'm certain some of the other TG members will come up with more good sources for both.

I think the hickory will end up a bit heavier than the 720 grains you mention. The laminated birch should be in that range.

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

[meathead]

Call Allengheny Mtn. Arrows.  They can set you up with either.

[huntnut]

Are my spines about right? I know I wouldn't know for sure tell I get some and try, but like I said this is what I came up with from Kelly's chart.

[Justin Falon]

I am with Ed.  Hickory is pretty tough.  I've had a lot of lam. birch fail at impact with the target due to improper spine.  Read that again.  YOu'd never see that with hickory.

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

James, there are too many variables. I'd recommend that you get a spine-test set; one shaft each: 55-60; 60-65; 65-70; 70-75; 75-80. Then bare shaft them. Most shaft makers are happy to sell you such a set. Some that stock shafts from the various makers are not as eager to do so, but some will. All are just a phone call or email away.

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

[huntnut]

Dr. Ashby thanks.
 I just got done reading your last artcle in TBM and thats what got me thinking of going with hardwood arrows and single bevil heads.

[Gator1]

Dennis at Hickory Creek Arrows is a sponsor, and I believe took over Troys Business..

I have some Poplar shafts coming any day now...

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

My pleasure, James. You're doing it right. Start now to get ready for next fall. That allows you plenty of time to get everything about the arrow setup as good as you possibly can.

Getting a spine test-set will let you get the best possible arrow flight. I do my woods just like the carbons. I start with an overly-long shaft that shows a bit of weak spine with the point weight weight I want to use, then bare-shaft test while shortening the shaft in small incerments until I get the dynamic spine right. If I run out of shaft length with that spine, I go up one step in static-spine and start all over again. It's a long, slow process, but the results are worth it.

Bare shafting for spine is a bit different than the bare-shaft tuning process OL has on his web site. Your main consern is getting the spine that gives you correct right-left impact. Be sure o do this with your bow vertical, even if you normally cant the bow. Rough tune the nocking point for porpoising but don't be overly concerned with what nock-kick shows after impact. Just look for left-right impact alignment and watch how cleanly the shaft appears to be flying AFTER it recovers from paradox.

I've posted the bare-shafting process for dynamic-spine on Extreme FOC carbons several times. A search should find one.

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Thank you Mitch. I didn't know that. What a great source of information TradGang is!

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

[Bjorn]

I second Hickory Creek for Hickory shafting. I'm not a fan of lam Birch. Regular Birch has worked fine for me.

[huntnut]

How much weight am I looking at with Hickory arrows with 200gr up front? I know its going to be slow but should drive right through a deer or hog.

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

James, I think you can find some of the bare shaft tuning information somewhere in my 12/13/07 pow-wow thread titled "accuracy and traditional broadheads". That was for Extreme FOC carbons, but the process is the same.

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

[huntnut]

Thanks for the info

[Bjorn]

Finished arrow with that head........900 grains for Hickory I just weighed the shafting. 825 for lam Birch just weighed them too. Now for the bad news.........you will need to shoot them with a 45# recurve because you won't find spine to support that weight of head in either wood.

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

James, you're looking at around 800 to 850 grains, depending on wood density and type of finish you apply.

Cher did some buff testing with her favored 'big medicine', the tapered hickory shafts with a 190 Grizzly, from her 53#@26" ACS-CX. Not what I would consider 'fully adequate'on a buffalo; but it would definitely kill one if the hit was spot on ... and they don't even slow down noticably going through a hog. Been trying to get her over to Extreme FOC carbons, but she's VERY independent! She likes them big old hickory shafts! She's never broke one yet. BTW, her ACS-CX throws them EXACTLY as fast as I can from my 70# reflex-deflex longbow.

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Bjorn, Troy produced hickory in high spine so, hopefully, Hickory Creek does too. I have some of Troy's tapered hickory spined 95-100. I also have lam. birch spined at 85-90; from AMAW.

Yep, your weights would be right on with parallel shafting. Most of what we've used are tapered.

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

[huntnut]

Yea looks like I'll be getting taper shaft and droping weight from the point to get them down some. I was hopeing  they would come out around 700-750gr But hey 15gpp-16gpp should make it very very quite tell it goes thump on the side of a deer. I can cut them back to 28.5" BOP so they will be 1/2" off shelf with the head, that might help with spine.

[Mohawkbows]

I just got some tapered laminated birch from Allegany and didn't have to change spine  
from my cedars, they seem like good shafts but I am struggling with getting a couple straight, is there any difference or "trick" to straightening a laminated shaft.

[Brian Krebs]

know what? I think we need a wood shaft chart with the poundage of the bow and draw length; and broadhead weight and all as factors.
 23/64th is going to be bigger than the back end of a grizzly; and that will be a factor too- so perhaps a chart for 11/32 in different woods and such.
 I just spent my last pennies on laminated birch; and with fletch ( I hunt with fletch not bare shafted) the 70-75 pound spine out of my 60 pound at 28 inch longbow- with a 190 grizzly on the end; drawn back to 30 inches seems: to kill cans and clay pigeons I use for targets out to 30 yards with accuracy.
 With a long draw; I cannot cut off arrow and still draw back all the way. Its not an option. I shoot full length shafts tapered at both ends and the broadhead taps the front of the bow when I draw back.
 Like I say - I cannot cut off any shafting; I have been shooting with the long draw for 50 plus years; and when an elk or deer steps out; I use all my power to put that arrow in it. That means I draw back to where I have since I started shooting when I was a kid.
 If we are to appeal to the masses with traditional archery; we should have our collective $hit together on what arrow and broadhead is going to be the most effecient- so those coming into the action are being as responsible as possible.
 I have taken over 60 big game animals with my bow; and I am starting to wonder how I ever did it- with all the specifications coming out: that seem to be a demand not a request.
 It is irritating to try and do your best; spend your money; make arrows and shoot them accurately; only to have people say that you suck at bareshafting and matching your arrows.
 Give me a chart. Indicate different woods and arrow lengths and broadhead weights.
  This is so far is way to confusing for the average Joe; and the average Joe is who should be the target of making bows most effecient.
  I am going to kill a bear with a laminated birch arrow ; 30 inches long; with a 190 grain grizzly head; at over 70 pounds draw- this spring.
  This is supposed to be fun; not an excercise in engineering.