Human physiology and heavy draw bows ??

[Flinttim]

This is something I have pondered for some time and while my fletching glue dries , I 'll ask it or maybe just throw out the subject to jaw over. Heavy draw bows- is there something physically different in some folks that allows them or gives them the edge drawing a heavy bow ? I know that you have to work at it and no one can go from a 40 pounder to a 100 pounder without work or conditioning. I look at Denny Sturgis' arms and see how he does it, but then I look at someone else and they don't look any different than me. Bill Negley for example. TBM had a small piece on him some months ago in TJ's front column. That is the only pic of him I have seen but he does not look like a big man and he drew some hellacious weights.
 Is it all muscle or are there some bone structure things at work that allow some to do it and some not ?
 Last Summer I built myself a new 62# selfbow. My top end bow up till then was 55# .There's a HUGE jump from 55 to 62 ! I did work up to it by Sept but then laid it down for the Fall and Winter and of course now I can't draw it. But I have been shooting the 55 pounder all along just fine. Trying now to get the 62 back in order.
 We have a guy in our club who's a pipefitter by trade, and he spins those huge pipe wrenches all day long and has arms bigger than my legs. He shoots the heavier bows pretty well. But he got a 72# Sentman in a trade a couple of years back and now has it for sale as he can't draw it well. It's just over the edge of his upper limit.
 Oh well, just something to jaw jack over while we wait for warm weather.

[Diamond Paul]

I know certain power lifting events favor one physical structure over another.  Top benchers usually have very wide chests/shoulders and short arms, while deadlifters usually have very long arms and rather short legs (this is typical of the very best lifters in those events).  My friend has broad shoulders and shorter arms than I, and could always draw much heavier bows than I could, even when I could lift more weight than he could.  Must be something to it; I don't see how Don Thomas and Paul Brunner pull those kind of weights!  They aren't very big, imposing looking guys.  I can't imagine ever being able to pull more than low 60's, even if I worked at it.  Paul.

[bowdude]

Don't forget studies have shown that without going to much heavier arrows, there is little payback going beyond 60# of draw.  The limbs whether 60# or 90# can react only so fast.

[brettlandon]

I have the afore mentioned physique and managed to 85#'s quite well until I destroyed my left (bow hand) shoulder three years ago.  Now I'm only good to 70#'s or so and my draw length has been reduced by about 3/4".  I used to have a very formal (what I call Olympic) style of shooting bows where I faced 90 degrees to the target.  You could draw a straight line from my left wrist through my right sholder.  With this style most of the work was done by my back muscles.  Now, I can no longer get my left arm in line with my shoulders and I cannot use my back as much.  Based on my present condition (less than 100% range of motion in my left shoulder), I would conclude that physiology has something to do with it.
All that said, my best friend took a doe with a 35# selfbow two years ago.  Proving, once again, shot placement, not poundage, is everything.  Good topic.

-Brett

[gregg dudley]

Karen and Jay Campbell made a presentation at the TBOF state championship shoot a week ago about hunting Water Buffalo in Australia.  Karen killed a nice buck with a bow drawing 70 or 80 pounds.  The story may be out already in TBM.  When I drew the bow that she was shooting in Florida my elbow and wrist both popped!

Karen is fit, attractive, and athletic, but she certainly doesn't look like she should be drawing that much weight. She said she worked up to it pretty quickly for the hunt and wants to maintain the ability.

[BigRonHuntAlot]

I would say DESIRE is the biggest factor. I know I could shoot more weight but other priorities dictate my practice time, therefore decide what weight I shoot consistently.YMMV

[Matt Stuckey]

There are a lot of factors in play, bony structure and lever arms probably play a very significant role in it. We can't really change that much.  Muscle type may play a role, the same reason some people can run all day without tiring, while others train endlessly and struggle with a few miles. A third factor may be the neuromuscular component.  When we contract a muscle we are not acutally using all the fibers at once, that would cause us to fatigue very quickly.  Through training, these recruitment patterns can be altered.  Some people have a better ability to recruit all more muscle fibers and generate more force.  In times of need when adrenalin is flowing and the body is in fight or flight mode this really kicks in, its the reason you hear of mothers lifting cars off children, or hikers moving boulders that have pinned someone.

[LazerRay]

When I was in the service I injured my shoulder pretty bad a posterior dislocation which means my scapula was screwed up and was medically discharged, so legally here in Texas i could xbow hunt during archery season; but I had a 72# Jeffery Mighty Mag and could shoot it quite well.
So to answer your question I think it is how good the muscles you use for archery are developed. I am right handed and it was my right shoulder that was dislocated. I later found that a 55# bow i obtained out performed that 72# with the same arrow. So why use all that bow when you don't have too.
RAY

[jon]

I remember when I was in my late 20's. I was a stout 5'8" 180 pounds and was lifting weights 3-4 days a week 2-3 hours at a time. I ran into a young lady one evening at the gym. She was 125 pounds (if that) and was following me on the various machines. She was adding a couple of weight plates to the stack I had just finished with. I just about fell over. I've never forgotten that night. It changed how I viewed "size" as it related to strength.
What does this have to do with the post? I believe that minute differences in muscle origination and insertion can make a tremendous difference in usable strength.
Look at chimps. I remember reading about a 120 pound female who was doccumented pulling (with one hand) over 2300 pounds on a scale attached to a door that had food behind it. Subtle differences do make a big difference.

Jon

[LKH]

I think a lot of it is genetics.  My wife is 51 and hasn't shot in years.  She can pull my longbows 63 and 69 at 28" back to her draw of about 26" without much effort.  Perfect olymic form to boot.  

I don't shoot as much since I have arthritis, but I seem to be able to handle the weight fine.  I often hold the string against my lip and push the bow out to "draw".  It helps the arthritis.

[laddy]

I shot the heavy stuff for years.  I went to high school with Vern Den Herder, defensive end Miami Dolphines superbowl years.  I was bound and determined that he was not going to out lift me in the weight room.  the fun part of that was the year he retired from football he was of course in beter shape than me, but he could not pull my Bamboo Jerry Hill, my 80 pounder, to even 25''.  I had a chest pull that I kept adding springs too.  I also did a series of weight lifting exercises with dumbells that kept my shoulders not only in shape but centered.  I drew like Howard Hill which minimized the amount of shoulder rotation during the draw.  I could draw a 30'' draw Jennings elephant bow 130 pounds 20 times with either hand, that was used for heavy bow pulling contests.  What made me give up the heavy stuff was two fold.  One I got complete penetration with a light bow when I hurt my elbow weight lifting and a pass through with a 50lb. bow the next year. then I developed a problem in my index finger.  I am a guitarist I need every finger except my right hand pinky.  I went to a 64lb. bow for fifteen years then down to 58 and 52 later.  i can still shoot the heavy bows, but if I make a habit out of it the injuries will come back.

[Al Kidner]

Good thread Tim,

 I work away from home on an 8 week on, 4 week of rotation. When at work I have enough time to go to the weight room everyday if not out on the roads. I noticed that when I came home my 63# bow felt a tad heavy, even though I was doing full body work outs in the jym.
  This time I brought back with me a 68# T/D recurve for drawing and keeping in shape, bow wise.

 Now here is the point. My mate that I train with is a BIG lad, not overweight just big - 230#, 6'4" and can lift larger amounts than I also.

 He tried to draw my 68# bow to anchor after a little instruction, he failed on goes 1,2 & 3 but just got it back on the forth try. He was very surprised when I drew it to anchor, held for a count and let down again, smooth as silk.

IMHO I think drawing a Trad bow has a lot to do with training, good form, the "want" to as well as natural strength. A combo of sorts maybe.

 But like what was written above, light bows and shot placemaent will do the deal.


AK.

[Brian Krebs]

I have been shooting heavy bows for a long time; I started with a 45 pound bow in the early sixties ( us old guys talk like that). I bought in 1982 what I thought was an appropriate weight bow - 60 pounds; and thought nothing of drawing it back using up all my 31 inch arrow.
 I was told that the 2216 arrows I shot perfectly- with perfect performance- were to light for my bow. I never figured that out.
 I shot 60 pound recurves until I switched to a longbow about 7 years ago; and with full length wood arrows; which are closer to 30 inches.
 I broke my shoulder blade in 2002; on the opening day of elk season; and could not draw back my bow even an inch. My bow arm.
 I shot a buck- by duct taping my longbow to my foot and shooting that way; and by the next spring I was shooting my bow; which was about 74 pounds at my draw.
 I started with one shot a day and worked my way up to where I was shooting normally again.
 I like the feel of a heavy weight bow.
I like shooting a heavy weight bow.
 I am though completely confused as to why a heavy bow with a given arrow is not as effecient as the same arrow in a lighter bow.
  I shot a 110 pound bow at 28 inches at my draw once on a dare; and put the arrow through the archery store target; backstop; and the cement cinder block wall behind it- to the sidewalk outside.
  No other arrows shot there over the years with that bow ever made it through the backstop. If the increased weight with the same bow and arrow did that- when other people did not draw back as far as I did  - then how can you say draw weight does not make the arrow go faster and hit harder?   :confused:    :confused:    :confused:    :confused:

[Legolas]

Does anyone have good data on penetration of the same bow type and arrow and  different weights ?

AND does anyone have penetration studies of the same bow and different weight arrows?

My guess is that  arrow weight has more to do with penetration than bow weight

Why don't you fellas that have a bunch of same type of bows at different weights do some of your research and report it back here. We also could create a new forum called statistics of archery where we could offer data. You know stuff like what does 1 inch of arrow length do to spine...

Flinttim,
 do you pull more with the tobaccee on the left or right side? LOL


 
Paulie

[Trad Man 25]

This is comming from personal opionion and experience,,
To shoot a Bow it uses certain mucles in your upper body,, and from what i have found is that you dont tend to use these muscles much unless shooting your bow,,
For example,, my flatmate,, Alexia,, is a Real nice guy from Moscow, and he dose a lot of weight lifting compertitions and has mucles on his mucles,, but can not get my 65lb hill to anchor,, and the only thing we could think if is that the mucles he uses to draw a bow have never been used,,
Where as my body is tuned to this weight and my mucles are accustomed to this exercise and have grown in strength,,

Unfortunatly my " Bow Mucleses " are not the once that will bring the girles in on the Beach,, but they are the once that make me  TradBowhunter  

i Am hopeing to go up to 70lbs in the fall,, and then may be 75lds in the spring,, just see how i go,, but i have found that doing upperbody exercieses being phisically actice,, good form and plenty of practice are the key to helping ,, these mucles to  grow and stay strong and healthy,,  

James

[Flinttim]

Legolas, I can't hit anchor with it on the right, so have to move it to the left when shooting.LOL.
 I understand the stuff about lighter bows getting the job done, but that's not what this is about. Face it, there are some people who cannot draw a 5o # bow no matter what they try. What this is about is the "How" and "Why" How some can and some can't and why that is. Maybe it would be good to hunt with a 65# but shoot 3D with a 55# due to the number of shots in the day.
 I do understand that in archery we are using a specific set of muscles to do a job and if you are not used to using those muscles you're gonna have a problem.
 I guess one other topic might be how to develope those muscles. I keep a Bow Fit in the house when it's too inclement to shoot outdoors and when I can shoot I try to shoot the heavier bows I have to keep in shape. My 55# Kodiak allows me to get to good anchor and shoot well so it is a good work out bow for me. But for 3D shoots I use my 48# Kadiak or 50# Saxon longbow. But my real quest is to get to that 62# selfbow hanging on the wall. Can't seem to figure out how to make that 7 pound jump. The monly thing I have that is "adjustable" upward is the Bow Fit.
 I remember reading somewhere about the man that was part of the Mary Rose Trust or something that was able to pull 150 lb longbows and there was mention that his body was studied by doctors and it was said he had the perfect body and physiology for archery. Might be interesting to know what came out of that.

[Scout 52]

Great Post!
   We've been having this discussion alot lately in our circle of trad guys. Mainly because we're all new to trad equipment and just learning. But I've been shooting a compound for twenty plus years. Not just for a few months a year to get ready for the upcoming season. I shot alot of tournments on the professional level. I used to log between 500 and 600 arrows a day just up to about 2 years ago. Now with that being said I was always ahead of the curve so to speak when it came to natural abilties. some things came easy to me when others seem to struggle with it. My point is I have always shot high poundage to practice and hunt with. Thats how I trained my back tenision muscles( I would train with 90-94 lbs with back tension then shoot an indoor shoot with 62 lbs) Seemed like I was shooting a kids bow. But the best althletes in the world train with more than they use in real situations.(Football players sprinting with weighted vest on)The thing is not everbody is up to it I think it has a lot to do with natural ability, mental ability, bone structure and so forth.. I'm 5'7" 170 lbs. My 1 buddy is 6'1" 210lbs and can't shoot much more than 52lbs. But kills deer every year.. I guess it just comes down to different strokes for different folks.. as long as we're all having fun it don't matter how much weight your pulling..

[BUFF]

A lot of it is mental. When I bought a new 74# BW with Cane break skins it was so pretty that it didn't seem any harder to draw than my 66# bow. I really think it is 80% in your head. 20% shooting every day

[Diamond Paul]

I wish someone would hurry up and figure out the perfect physiology for bow-pulling so that I can go ahead and schedule some orthopedic surgery to achieve it!    

[Richie Nell]

I don't think this issue is very complicated.  There are distinct back and shoulder muscles used when pulling a bow.  These specific muscles are not used under any strain much at all any other time except purposely isolating them while lifting weights.  
Baseball pitchers actually use them more than most people.  Pitchers do important exercises that isolate the shoulder muscles and rotator cuff muscles which extend around the top of the back and shoulder.  These are very important in pulling a bow.  IF these muscles are worked regularly they can pull heavy weight bows in a short period of time.  
People who can't pull 60-65# plus weights just simply haven't developed enough strength in those very isolated but important muscles.
I think what happens is most people think that if it is too hard to pull one time then they are NOT gonna work up to it.  Therefore never develop muscle density where needed most.
Then the next step for those particular bow shooters is "What is the lightest bow weight needed to hunt elk?"

And here we go again.