I can't find my "favorite" broadhead

[Mike Orton]

I know what I want but I can't seem to find it and always have to compromise...now before the crowd of Gangsters make plans to lynch me or preach about shot placement, hear me out.

I enjoy my big snuffers and woodsmans for deer sized game but I have issues about these broadheads.  Neither of the two are particularly durable if bone is encountered as they are made of fairly soft metals. Shoot even a deer in the shoulder and see if those heads don't sway down and ruin the blade.  Yes Magnus guarantees for life and that is indeed a generous offer. They are easy to sharpen but they just don't hold the edge like a high quality knife will hold.  For those guys that like the burr left on the edge the metal in the Woodsman and the Snuffer will burr-up like a champ.  I like mine polished razor sharp w/ no burr.

I generally shoot the large Magnus 1 or the Grizzly Grandes for the larger beasts, i.e. elk, moose & bears etc. but in my opinion, the Magnus 1 is too short (the work of cutting happens too quickly in a short span) and the Grizzly Grande is too narrow for my liking.  I want a wider blade than the Griz offers.  I like the metal quality in the Grizzly, I like how once honed and polished it takes on a shine of quality tool steel and it is oh so durable.

I'd just like to see someone make a 3 inch long by 1 9/16 wide two blade broadhead, laminated and copper brazed for strength, sharpened on one side like the Grizzly and slotted to accept the breakaway bleeder blades like the old Bear broadheads used to be.  I want those bleeders to easily break away if they encountered bone.   I want that metal hardened sufficiently to hold an edge well, (I'm not familiar enough with the Rockwell scale to quote a specific number).  I want solid blade broadheads that will not swag down upon impact with heavy bone.  I want them to be tapered so I can epoxy a steel broadhead adapter to use as a screw on and at least 200 grains before I get to the adapter.  This would give me the option of a four blade head to use on speed goats, whitetails, Mulies etc. and the same broadhead, in 2 blade fashion to use on the big nasty beasts.

The closest head I can find is a 190 Grizzly Grande, but it lacks the slots for bleeder blades, and is too narrow for my preference.  How about making me a Grizzly Super Grande in 1 9/16 wide, so after I fully sharpen the beast it is a full 1 1/2" wide.  Slot the danged thing and offer some breakaway bleeders.  Harden up that metal and make me work toward polishing it sharp.

With the trend toward high FoC arrows, heavy weight arrows, skinny arrows, etc.,  and thanks to the great work of Dr. Ashby, it seems like one of the broadhead manufactures would finally just "get it".  

The Simmons line of broadheads come close but in my opinion fail (all due respect to the Simmons line) in several areas, i.e. poor metal hardness, double sided edge and non-laminate structure.  But they're big, no doubt about that.

Okay guys, now blast away at me....  

[buck-tamer00]

ribtek 190

[Mike Orton]

Ribtek 190
Not quite wide enough (1 1/4" before sharpening), has the length though, good length to width ratio...Rockwell 45, not quite hard enough

Is the Ribteck a copper brazed laminated construction?

Admittedly close, not quite there though

[Roger Norris]

I can't imagine improving on the Magnus I, with or without bleeder blades.

[buckracks7]

Razorcaps? I like them.

[paradocs]

Ace Super Express 200 gr.

[Bill Carlsen]

Have you looked at the Zephyr heads? Seem to have a lot of what you are looking for.

[SlowBowinMO]

When you find them, let me know, I'll stock 'em!

Actually, I think it could be done with modification to the 150 El Grande, adding some steel to make it wider and it would probably still come in around 200 or so.  Interesting idea.

I'd like to see Grizzly's slotted as well, I'm not talented enough to do it myself.  I love the Grizzly as it is, but sometimes you don't need all that penetration and a little extra cutting would be nice.

[doctorbrady]

Mike,
You make great points.  The problem, I believe, is that everything is a give and take in the manufacturing process.  The Simmons heads meet most of your physical descriptions, they just can't hold up to the same abuse that an 'ol grizz can.  Like many, I have also often wondered why grizzlies can't be made that are presharpened or at least properly tapered on the business end.  It takes a fair amount of work to get them there and you lose a fair amount of cutting diameter.  Also keep in mind, that making a grizzly wider on the back end will affect penetration.  A 1 1/2" grizzly won't penetrate the same as the 1" variety in Dr. Ashby's studies.  The Stos heads are as close as I can seem to get to having great penetration, reasonably easy sharpening, good blood trails, and good durability.  The best thing is there is still room for improvement for an entrepeneur with some broadhead sense!!!!!

[doctorbrady]

I have another thought....What about Ashby's Ultimate as a broadhead name.  Dr. Ed, are you listening?  Who better to design the ultimate broadhead than the guy who has done the most work studying them.  I will stop thinking now  

[J-dog]

STOS period

[J-dog]

Keep thinking Doc!!!You have a great idea!    


Dr. Ashby you listening?????????  

[Arrow4Christ]

You've had 160 grain Snuffers bend? Mine are tough as can be....and I've tortured em a bit    I was even able to snap a Grizzly 190 at the ferrule stump shooting  :D

[Mike Orton]

Roger,
I agree, the Magnus 1 comes pretty close, I just wish it was a little wider and longer to give a better width to length ratio.

Buckracks, I took a look at the Razorcaps and consider them too fragile to split bone without swagging the blades.  Also that design, while offering variable weights, limits broadhead weight to 200 grains.  For strictly North America hunting they are probably fine but I'd put them into the same category as the Snuffers or Wensel Woodsmans.  By the way, all distinguished company to be in.

ParaDocs,  The Ace Super Express is a broadhead that I'd not considered in the past.  Thanks for the heads up, I'll take a look at this one.  In looking at the Ace website photo it didn't look like the 200 grain offered a slit for breakaway bleeders.  I'll want to look into how hard the metal is on these as well.  Thanks for the tip.

Bill, the Zephyr is not a laminated design.  While I have no personal experience with this broadhead my inclination would be to question structural integrity.  But certainly worth a look.

SloBowinMo,  We're not talking about rocket science here.  I'm personally not one to flock toward the newest gadgets out there.  As stated ad-nausium on this and other archery web sites most any broadhead when delivered to the boilerworks will perform on even the largest beasts.  Rip a hole in the heart of any animal and it will expire.  Nuff said there.  But the realities of time spent afield dictate that pooh happens when arrows fly toward animals.  Often the animals don't cooperate.  It's for those times when I want absolute confidence in what is attached to my arrow.  Good old fashion tried and true designs that are "Over Engineered" in the toughness category, that will punch through heavy bones while being pushed by heavy, slow to moderately moving arrows(170 to 210 fps) are what I seek.  I want two holes punched through the critter, east and west sides of a north bound animal.  I want those holes to be substantial in size and I want to be capable of reusing that broadhead numerous times because it maintains the structureal integrity of sharpness, has not deformed (swagged) the blades as it has broken (not cut) bones in it's path.  The twisting motion of the single edge sharpening design as described in Dr. Ashby's report appears to be critical in design property to facilitate the shattering of bone, rather than the extra work of cutting through bone.

For me personally I think the Grizzly folks need to consider building a wider Grizzly Grande that is slotted to accept a breakaway bleeder, while eyeing quality control to keep that hardness way up high.  I don't mind spending extra time sharpening a hardened tool.  I also don't mind spending more money for the broadhead that meets all the criteria set forth.

   Thanks to those who took the time to respond in a respectful manner.  That respect is what makes this web site so great!

[J-dog]

I like STOS heads  but I do wish they had a bleeder as that little bit wil open a critter up just a little more for the blood.

I shoot mainly 115 lb whitetails, but will try for a big eastern NC blackie this year w/my curve. They are regularly 500 to 600 lbs. I know my setup will put him down no problem but I worry about blood trail(Don't want to go there!!). Maybe it won't be a long trail if I do happen to get a trail!

Any head you mention will work, I just don't think there is the perfect head out there. I look at it like hazard mitigation, see what is the worst that could happen and plan for that! Yes it will be overkill for the regular hits but if pooh happens(and it does) you will be good to go.

I like threads like this because you get good responses you can learn from.

Later

Jason

[Mike Orton]

DoctorBrady,
You make a good point about wider broadheads not penetrating as well as a 1 inch (finish sharpening dimension) Grizzly.  Certainly the extra 50% in width would affect penetration.  But what we're learngin about high FoC, heavy arrows, skinny shafting, ect. will improve upon penetration as well.

I'd be all for Dr. Ashby lending his name to a new Super Grizzly, except for the fact that weree he to do such a thing the skeptics out there would negate or dismiss all his great study data as a means of marketing for his own personal profit.  One thing that has personally impressed me so much of Dr. Ashby has been his apparent personal integrity toward the purity of the scientific process.

J-dog, the Stos is a good product, no question there.  A bit small from where I'd ultimately like to be and does not hold that single edge design that Dr. Ashby touts.  Not sure of the materials hardness issue.

Arrow4Christ, yes sir, I've had the 160 Snuffers swag down on me.  I like them a lot, don't get me wrong.  For deer sized game they are awesome but the three blade design does not penetrate through heavy bone as well as the two blade design.  Ask too-short about this one.  Also I've never been overly impressed with the quality of the hardness of metal used in the Magnus products.
As for your snapping a Grizzly, I've not suggested the Grizzly is 100% bulletproof 100% of the time.  This is not a thread to promote one broadhead over another but merely to generate dialog toward the improvement of the most important part of the archery equation.  The broadhead that's attached the to arrow is the most important part, not the bow, not the quiver, not the high end binocs, it's the broadhead that seals the deal.

[JC]

When you get down to all the specifics you want, cause this is about wants, not needs, it's doubtful you will fill the bill without building it yourself.

I hope to have a high tech machinist bud EDM some slots in a set of STOS 160's for me: that's my idea of the ultimate broadhead without building one from the ground up.

I may also do a few of my Deadheads: tied for second as my ultimate.

I don't have a list as specific as yours, mainly because I can't tell an animal killed with a 2 1/2" long head vs one killed with a 3" long head...same with width. I've not had any issues with either of these steels, they have plenty of cutting surface, at least the STOS is as tough as anything built if I wanted to hunt water buff and up (and the deadhead would be more than enough for anything below).

One of the reasons broadheads don't hold an edge like a knife is simply they are engineered that way. Much harder and heads would tend to break or shatter upon hard bone impact....or especially on a rock on the exit. So manufacturers in turn don't make them as hard as many knives. Now some manufacturers are leaning more towards knife design, ie. german kenetics and their silver flame using a very high tech steel that is more often found in the custom knife industry. And hence, their price. Mainstream broadhead manufacturers know most people won't pay the price for the silver flame, so they don't make them out of a higher grade steel...simply for economy. Odds are, the arrow is going to zip through the animal and skip off into the distance down the mountain anyway....why waste $25 bucks killing a critter when you can waste $8?

Your mileage may vary...but that's the way I see it. Good luck in your broadhead hunt, let us see it when you decide to build it or find something that fills your criteria.

[James Wrenn]

The simmons and stos are my two favorites.I like both but will reserve the stos for times a straight down shot is needed or if I need to shoot a lighter weight bow than I am now.Untill then the big simmons rule.  

[doctorbrady]

Mike,
I agree with your point that having Dr. Ed endorse a head might detract from his studies.  It was made somewhat tongue in cheek.  However, the good doc is no spring chicken anymore, so when he isn't able to pull big bows and sling arrows through those poor buffalo, he may need another past time...building the "perfect broadhead" would be a good one     In the meantime, I like JC's idea of having a standard Stos machined to allow for a bleeder blade.  As Dr. Ashby's studies show, the Stos is a very close second to the grizzly when transformed into a tanto style tip.  In my opinion, it is also much easier to sharpen and cuts a bigger path than the grizzly 'cause you don't have to narrow it down so much in the sharpening process.
Like everyone else, I am anxiously awaiting the manufacturer, big money or small, that puts together all the great information we have on broadheads and builds a new number one...a broadhead that penetrates well, holds up well, sharpens easily, and cuts a hole so big you have to photoshop it to get it into TBM.

[paradocs]

Mike-Due to the interlocking ferrule, the big Ace broadhead might allow you to epoxy your own bleeders in place, if you feel you need them.  Don't know the actual Rockwell hardness of the Ace, but think I remember they're several points harder than "average".  I know they hold an edge extremely well, even when rattlin' around in a back quiver