Teflon Paint

[Naphtali]

Boning is a barnyard way of densifying (to use an investment casting term) basis material. Compressing wood -- Forgewood®?? -- achieves similar result in a controlled fashion. Would Forgewood® benefit from boning? Couldn't hurt, and probably would benefit from additional surface hardening.

Charring is a method I identified when editing a manuscript. Apparently, Special Forces training includes creating weapons/tools from whatever materials are available. This was a method described as hardening a jury-rigged spear point.

Will these processes be easier to apply to denser woods? Since I believe a harder wood shaft surface is a better one, difficulty would not be important. Neither of these processes is difficult or risky.

Will a denser wood accept these processes more easily or effectively? No shaft wood is really hard. All have relatively open/porus surfaces until finished. I doubt there would be a problem surface hardening, or applying a slick-finish surface, to any shaft wood. . . .

Of course, I write in the abstract. I have not created a single wood-shafted arrow. I have done both surface-hardening processes for other purposes, though.

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Lance, yes, and it's still widely used by 'primative' (?) folk around the world to fire-harden wooden 'cutting weapons'.

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

[Littlefeather]

OK, I recieved the arrow from Bjorn today along with the can of teflon that you ordered Doc.

My innitial impression) The arrow is going to penetrate very well. I say this because the finish is very slick and very smooth. The downfall of the finish on the arrow is that it is still soft. I can scratch the finish with a fingernail. I'd assume this is the result of not hardening it by baking. I plan to try and stick this arrow through a pig this weekend if I can find some time. I have a hunt starting tomorrow. Customers come first!

Teflon from Doc) I pulled out the can and thumbed through the directions. I know, I should know by now to just throw the damn directions out before undertaking any Ashby projects. LOL!

Problem I see here is that this teflon is requiring a bake time of 15-20 minutes at 350 degrees. I'm afraid wood may combust before the teflon hardens. I'm going to make a few attempts on some broken wood shafts to see what happens. I can tell you guys already that my wife is not going to be happy about me using the oven again for more archery experiments. Awww, I guess I'll just tell her the good Doc said it was alright. I always take a back seat to Ashby!    

So, should I go ahead and finish out Bjorns arrow with a trusty Griz 190? Better see if this shaft is going to fly with a machette up front. CK

[Bjorn]

Hey Curtis, my thought was that the spray paint would work well on the heads but not shafts unless they were aluminum.
350 degrees should be under the flash point of pretty near anything...........but in the heating process there will be air in the oven that is way over 350 and some charring will occurr.
It will be exciting to hear about the real live or real dead testing on your hunt!!
It is possible that the surface is soft because the primer I used is water based and the Teflon paint has dizzolved it.
I will look at the other samples when I get home in a few hours.

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Glad to hear that the paint finish feels slick. The 'overcoating' made for the Teflon paint might be worth a look.

I'm interested in how the spray might work on a BH. However, 350 Degrees ... might have to look at the effect on steel tempering. I think you'll need to cool any BH's quickly after them come out of the oven.

ALL YOU STEEL WORKERS OUT THERE ... what should we do here? Is 350 degrees going to affect the temper? What's the best course of action to preserve the metal's hardness?

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

[Littlefeather]

I'm thinking I'll go wider than the Griz. I think I'll teflon a few Magnus 1's and maybe a Sasquatch. I'm pretty sure we'll be looking at passthroughs on anything but the biggest of big pigs. Better not hex myself by saying anything more. I'll get to work now. CK

[Dave Huff]

Oh, one thing on the bake on teflon, make SURE the wife is out of the house before you do it. It smells the house up and will send you to the dog house in a hurry.  Been there , done that.

[Bjorn]

Curtis, and Dr. Ashby; when the proper primer is used the Teflon paint is rock hard. I have another shaft here that bears that out.
If Curtis reports back that the Teflon paint is superior to conventional surfaces I will get some of the proper primer, cleaning fluids, and Teflon paint and dip a dozen or more shafts for further testing.
I have enough idle dip tubes and stuff to do that.
Some of the knife guys will know about baking metals and tempering, I suspect that 350 is low.

[Littlefeather]

Alright, we're baked!

I decided on two Magnus 1's and one of my modified El Grande's. I started by using a spray-on paint stripper. I tend to paint all my broadheads white on one side and I wanted the surfaces clean and paint-free for the teflon.

I stripped the heads and then acetone'd them. Next came one solid coating of teflon per side. The teflon went on thick enough that I felt it was suffecient without a second coat. I let them dry for 30 minutes per the instructions(pesky things) and then placed in a toasted oven at approximately 350 degrees for 20 minutes.

Once everything was complete I opened the oven and I quick quenched one Magnus 1 and the Griz. in cool tap water. I left one Magnus to slow cool as per the instructions. I should know once I lay a file on them if the temper has been changed to any measurable degree. Pure science!  :p   HeeHeee!

I can tell you right now that this finish is hands down the best finish I've seen. It's very similar to the Eclipse but yet different. It's very cool! If all works like I think it will I'll be looking for some white teflon soon. More to come.    CK

[waterone]

If you are doing a lot of experimenting where you are needing to bake the heads, why not pick up a simple toaster oven?  Of course you couldn't put an arrow in the toaster oven, but you could sure do a lot of heads. (You could cook out in the shop, too)

I would suggest that no matter if you use the house oven or something else, it would be cheap insurance to get an oven thermometer, preferrably one with that has the readout that is outside the oven.  my family has had one and every oven I've ever had was off as to temps. I would think that an even, correct temp would insure a better quality.

BTw, you probably could pick up a good used oven cheap, too.

[brettlandon]

Most knives are baked for about one hour in a 390 to 400 degree oven.  But each steel is different.  Those temperatures and times are for saw blades and lawnmower blades (we knifemakers are scrounging scoundrels). and would probably be appropriate for broadheads.  Quenching may create additional hardness, the knives are being baked to temper (remove some hardness) them.  Tippit will better fill you in.

-Brett

[Tree man]

You will not significantly effect temper on any steel at temps below 500F even if the bake is for several hours (you can Stress Relieve steel at lower temps but dimensions and temper won't change appreciably). Wood combusts at over 400F.(451F for paper -unprocesed wood might vary a little due to volatiles)

[Terry Green]

I never really worried about the Bhead as its not very poruse....but I have the arrow shaft, and have always kept a coat of black magic tire wet on my woodies for sure, and carbons if I have time.

Any study on that Doc?

[Jeremy]

I have to disagree with Tree Man.
Does anyone know what steel they use in the heads?  Playing around with a few of them I'm guessing 1050 or some other medium carbon steel (at most for the Grizzlies).
Tempering at 400 would give you a 52 Rc, which is above some of the grizzlies and below some of the others.  If the steel isn't quite 1050 putting it at 350 has the potential to soften it below what it's supplied as.
I'll put a Magnus II in the oven tonight and see if it affects it.  That's all I have here now, except for a few Tuskers I want to play with - single bevel of course  

[JC]

Interested to hear your results Curtis...

[Littlefeather]

Results from the first hunt are in. As expected, penetration was not an issue. Marksmanship certainly was. I managed a solid stalk to within 7 yards this morning. My body angle was somewhat distorted by a hasty set-up and my first shot was a miss.     That's right, I MISSED at a grand total of 7 yards. I felt some interference with my jacket sleeve upon release so there may have been more than just a simple miss.    

As so ofter happens, the pigs split two directions and I was able to grunt one for a second shot. The shot was again lacking in placement.  :rolleyes:    :rolleyes:    :rolleyes:  I did what I see so many guys do and I hit way high. Also as expected, the arrow was right there where it had gone through the hog. The second arrow was an arrow dynamics waxed with car wax and sporting an El Grande with teflon. No doubt an effective combo between the car waxed shaft and the teflon head. Now all we need is a shooter!

I managed to see the pig again an hour later. I did feel that the pig would recover but went and trailed him anyway. I bumped him from his bed about 300 yards from the shot. He looked just fine and could easily have outrun a gazelle. Two more days till the hunt ends. I'll try again this evening except I'm changing bows. I'm going with my Sunbear longbow. CK

[steadman]

Hang in there Curtis. It'll come together. Look forward to pics!  

[Charlie Lamb]

Looks like I saved the mailman another severe beatin'.    

Just upholding the title..."slowest bowyer west of the Mississippi."  

[BlkDog]

Okay, this got me thinking a little... Anyone ever try treating their arrows with Rain-X?  If you have ever used this on your windshield, you've seen how the water rolls right off. Might have some potential as a penetration enhancer on soft tissue.

[Littlefeather]

Sorry I've been so silent but I've been in hunting camp guiding a terminal cancer patient and his Grandson for their first two hogs. They've succeeded!

Unfortunate for this study, I've been bowless for numerous days. Doc Ashby surprised us by stopping by hunting camp on his way back east after seeing OL out in Roswell. I did get to hunt with OL's world record holding flight bow. Yowzer! What an absolute screamer of a bow!

Doc and I sat at the round table last night and discussed so many things. Docs ability to disect the world of archery and come up with so many innovations is simply amazing. Doc headed east this morning and left me with a pile of ideas and info that will keep me working for quite some time. The one thing he showed me about foc and tuning has given me penetration on solid foam exceeding my prior penetration by a minimum of about 70%. I absolutely stood with my mouth open as I saw an AD Trad penetrate 3/4 of the length of the arrow through a solid block of foam. He simply said that if we had more time he'd have me shooting through the entire block with no problem. Remember, my bows are under 55#. I was actually shooting 47# when I got the penetration I speak of.

Here's a pic of the broadhead and arrow shaft coated in teflon.
 
The arrow is not at all extreem in foc but I'll still try and find an unsuspecting test dummy in the next few weeks. I'll then remove the broadhead and try it under the tuning criteria that Doc has now shared with me. The most fascinating of all we talked about was the innovations Doc is getting from OL's flight shooting and then reapplying to the hunting arrow. Reeeeealy interesting stuff!!!! Using OL's engineering(actual rocket science) and Docs practical hunting experience I do believe we will be seeing some real extensive changes in the historic thought processes of archery in the very near future. I find myself getting very excited about a side of archery that I felt had already been explored. Boy have I ever been wrong!!!! Doc feels he will be seeing very light bows shooting completely through very heavy bone in the near future. I now believe this is very possible!!!! I have seen with my own eyes what lies ahead.

Stay tuned! We're sure to make a hole in something soon. CK