grizzlys? bloodtrails?

[Kingwouldbe]

Grizzly 160 honed so sharp it cuts before it even hits the animal LOL

Some say they cant get a good blood trail from a 2 blade, it's not the 2 blade that is keeping you from having a good blood trail, it's the razors edge your not getting.

When you push a fat 3 or 4 blade through you leave a bigger hole which can let more blood out that hole, however if you don't have an exit it's all inside.

I want a pass through every time, no exceptions and if you have a supper sharp razor honed 2 blade the blood just pours out the hole.

This here is what we call a blind man's blood trail.      

[RC]

Kingwoodbe, I could follow that blood trail.RC

[Jack Skinner]

My experence with over 10yrs with the grizz both 160 and 190 is the same as Ray Hammond. Even if they bleed internally not much blood trail, they die quick.

I am color blind and have trouble with blood trails, the grizz has been good to me.

[Hattrick]

Jack,it`s not the good hit i`m worry about it`s the not so good hit`s we make, it happen`s to everyone soooner or later. Internall bleeding is not good if thats the dorm. I hunt in wet swampy areas that make good blood trails bad. That`s what my concern is. With these condition`s in mind ,are grizs my best option? 10yrs shooting the same head i defently will respect ur input,THANKS

[bowdude]

I wasn't there but I had a relative put a large 4 blade completely through an 8 pointer broadside at 14 yards.  Somewhere around the top of the heart.  He had a lousy blood trail, but thankfully the deer did not go far.  He pointed this out as his questioning to me was "Why were the lungs full of air like a ballon with very little blood?  I told him to sharpen his broadheads and that he was lucky he hit the heart or the deer may have gotten away.  He said "They are sharp right out of the package"!  Yeah right!

[BigArcher]

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd69/BigArcher/P1010012.jpg
Dr. Ashby,

The elk was standing pretty much broadside at about 35 to 40 yards. Facing to my right. Down hill at maybe a 15 deg angle.
I was a fairly heavy arrow (Approx 750gr) with the 190 gr grizzly out of a 93# Osage bow.
The arrow flew very smoothly. I actually was distracted from the spot I shot at by seeing the arrow in flight and remember thinking  "beautiful".
As I was wondering if I had hit it ( yelling to myself "NO, I couldn't have missed") I heard the elk fall.  Woomp!  I could see him from where I stood.
The entry wound is visible in the picture.

[Hattrick]

hearing them fall is SO SWEET!!!!!!!!!Congratulations nice shot!

[Jack Skinner]

Hattrick

I have had great hits and not so great hits with the griz. Great blood trails and not so great. One muley in Nevada jumped the string and turned away. The griz went all the way thru the ham severed the femoral. It was a horrible hit but the easiest blood trail I ever followed. The deer lasted 30 yds. The griz has turned some not so great hits into meat in the freezer for me. No one likes bad hits but they happen. Since the oringal Natal study and a little before that even, I have know that the penetration of the griz cuts and cuts.

[James Wrenn]

The blade that does the most cutting and still gives you ample penitration is always best.Even if I shoot light weight bows I still know the cutting in the right places is what does the killing.Not numbers in weight or poundage.You simply cut them and they bleed to death.Everyone has to make some sort of compramise when setting up there rigs.As long as I can get bigger broadheads out the other side I will never choose a smaller one. :)If I can get 3 or 4 blades through something there is no reason to shoot a two blade ect. jmho

[flatbowMB]

James, I know you favor the tree sharks and based on some of the recommendations you had previously posted here on TG, I did try them on deer.  I believe I had previously posted some pictures of the results, but I can't seem to find that thread.  I might still have those pictures on file if interested.

[JC]

Originally posted by flatbowMB:
B.  There is no such thing as a sharp edge with a burr.

C.  Serrated edges are a marketing gimmick that is detrimental to the quality of a cut.  The rationale behind their use that I've read is that they will 'grip & tear' larger tough, elastic vessels which would otherwise be pushed out of the way by a smoother edge.  If a smooth edge is truly, truly sharp, it will simlply slice right through a large artery without displacing it in the least.  While there are collagenous fibers in an arterial wall they certainly aren't going to give significant resistance to an extremely sharp blade.  It's not as though there is cartilage or bone in arterial walls.

Whew, that's good news to all the countless numbers of critters that have been taken with "old fashiioned", file sharpened burred edges. Get up guys...you're all ok!      

I like both  edges (honed/polished using strops, paper wheel etc. and edges only file sharpened)...and have killed animals cleanly with both. I think if you lose an animal with a "shaving sharp" broadhead, you'll lose it whether it's honed to the nth degree or just come off the file...cuz you probably hit it bad.

Silver flames are the standard of broadhead sharpness in my opinion (hand stropped)....Joebuck's snuffer he sent me is a close second (filed then stropped with a micro-paste)....Ray Hammond's Griz aren't too far behind (file sharpened and lightly stropped but you can see the burr)....tied with Charlie Lamb's Woodsmans (file sharpened then serrated with the edge of the file, then light pass over the croc). I wouldn't want to get cut by any of them and all have enough historical success to be called "the correct way to sharpen", imho.

And back to the original question regarding griz and blood trails, a typical scene hunting with Ray goes like this: "Walking up to Ray lounging in his stand..."Did you shoot?"...."Yep."...."Ok, well let's get to tracking!"...."Nope."..."Why not?"..."He's right there (pointing at a critter lying a few yards from where I stand)." Curtis Kellar, who shoots a griz most of the time usually has the same scenario played out in his woods. Never had the opportunity to bloodtrail a critter shot with a Griz...but danged if they don't kill!

[flatbowMB]

Maybe the next advancement in shaving technology that Gillete will put forward will be burred razor blades.  Having a burr on an edge does not mean it won't cut, it simply means that the edge is unfinished and could be sharper.

[JC]

If I were shaving my face, I certainly would take the smoothest edge I could find....opinions vary regarding how much "finishing" you need to cleanly kill an animal. I prefer them to expire via pneumothorax myself.

[flatbowMB]

Originally posted by JC:
....opinions vary regarding how much "finishing" you need to cleanly kill an animal. I prefer them to expire via pneumothorax myself.

How much finishing is needed goes back to the point of my first 2 posts in this thread - the sharper, the better.  The sharper the edge, the more bleeding.  A burred edge will never be as sharp as it could be.  A serrated edge will never be as sharp as it could otherwise be.

There is no solid logical reason to put a serrated edge on a broadhead.  The only way that an artery or other major blood vesssel could pushed out of the way by the edge of a broadhead is if that edge is not truly sharp in the first place.

[JC]

As I said "opinions vary"....and there're countless dead animals as evidence.

[Kingwouldbe]

JC, opinions are like certain body parts and most stink IMHO.

Lets go with science and the MOUNTAIN of evidence the good Doc. has so selflessly put together for us.

Yes, my friend lots and lots of animals have been killed with less than the best arrow broadhead combination.

Yes, you can kill them with a filed sharpened broadhead.

Yes, you can kill them with a rock (stone broadhead)

But if you want the most blood and the deepest penetration just do what the Doc. said.

Originally posted by Dr. Ed Ashby:
From a medical standpoint, there is no question about which type of cut bleeds the longest and most freely; it's the one made by the thinnest, sharpest, smoothest edge. Why? Because the thinner, sharper and smoother the cutting edge the less of the tissue lining the blood vessel's inner wall is disrupted.

Disruption of the inner lining of the vessel wall initiates the release of the protein, prothrombin. Prothrombin is converted to the enzyme thrombin, through a reaction with the blood plasma. Thrombin catalyzes the conversion of fibrinogen to fibrin; the last step in coagulation of the blood. Coagulation stops or retards the rate of hemorrhaging; which is exactly what the bowhunter does not want to happen.

The greater the 'tearing effect' of the cutting edge, the more prothrombin released. The more prothrombin released, the more thrombin produced. The more thrombin there is, the more fibrinogen converted to fibrin. The more fibrin, the shorter the clotting time. The shorter the clotting time, the faster the rate of blood loss decreases. The faster the blood loss decreases, the less the total blood loss (per unit of time).

There isn't a highly significant difference when a major vessel is severed. Clotting alone isn't going to seal that off. However, there is credible medical evidence that if the shaft remains in the wound it contributes (applies) direct pressure on the wound. Furthermore, at least according to research by the Royal Academy of Veterinary Surgeons, if the arrow shaft remains in the wound AND the animal continues to move, pressure between shaft and wound is further increased. The combination of the two; direct pressure of the shaft on the wound and shortened clotting time; can result in hemorrhagic sealing, or near-sealing, of even substantial vessels; significantly retarding onset of physiologic shock and ensuing collapse. Sometimes these factors can even prevent the onset of shock and collapse.

Even with a pass-through hit, clotting time does, however, always become a very important factor when only small-diameter vessels have been severed; such as on a 'muscle-tissue only' hit, or a pure gut hit that misses the few major vessels. Recovering an animal after a 'muscle only' hit? Yes, it does sometimes happen, but requires (1) that the bleeding from the capillaries continue unabated and (2) careful and correct follow-up procedures are used.

I'll opt for an edge that's as sharp, smooth and thin as possible.

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

[NY Yankee]

Sharp, Pseudo Sharp, Damn Sharp, Really Sharp, Really  Really Sharp, Friday the 13th Sharp or what my mom uses to squash tomatoes with. If it splits a rib or comes unto contact with anything hard, Its not gonna be nearly as sharp as it was in the quiver. Thats why I think placement and deep penetration are far more important than anything else. 2, 3, 4, or more blades, doesnt matter what the cut in the hide looks like.

[Bonebuster]

It`s cool that after so much debate, and hundreds or even thousands of years of combined experience, so many of us STILL find it almost impossible not to get into a discussion about broadheads.

Regardless of what kind of bow, what kind of arrow, or what kind of animal, it all comes down to the broadhead. We all want to choose what we feel will work the best.

Sometimes human nature causes us to overlook the most simple designs in things we use. I know I did for years... but I have learned.

Bowhunting forever.

[Brian Krebs]

I shot a doe last fall; a shot that hit way low; and only cut the back of the does leg. I kept on the blood trail; and did not let it lay down; to keep the blood flowing. Evenually ( after a mile of tracking- the sharp sharp broadhead cut worked. The doe showed no sign of being hit when it walked off.


   

I believe in really sharp broadheads !

[bm22]

so was it dead when you found it or did it just get to weak to keep going and you got another shot? either way great story !!!!