Sharpening challanged

[Pat B.]

Folks, I've been bowhunting since the late 60's and have enjoyed quite a bit of success. I believe every animal I've shot, with just a couple of exceptions, has been with a 2 blade Zwickey or something similar. A few wore some sort of "bleeder blade". I've been blessed with the ability to take most any 2 blade head and get it hair popping sharp in a short amount of time.  However, I seem to be sharpening CHALLANGED when it comes to sharpening 3 blade heads. I've watched Charlie Lambs vid's on sharpening the W-W and have used those methods. While I can get a head somewhat sharp they are NO WHERE near razor sharp.. I would truly love some instruction on how to SHARPEN 3 blade heads. RAZOR SHARP..
                 Best Regards,
                             Pat

[Benha]

Pat B I wish I could get my Zwickeys "hair popping sharp." Have no experience with three blade heads. Good luck!

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Pat,

I won't go into great details, because I'm sure there are many who will supply you with tons of specific methods.

Sharpening 3 blade BH's  "on the flat, 2 blades at a time" results in each side on the bevel being at 30 degrees, for a total bevel angle of 60 degrees. When all else is equal (sharpening method and technique and the steel's quality), the thinner an edge (the lower its total bevel angle) the sharper the edge will be.

On three blade BH's, I've had the best luck by hollow-grinding the edges, to get a thinner edge, then polishing the hollow-grind with light pressure and fine grit abrasives applied to a curved surface of equal, or slightly greater diameter than the wheel used to establish the hollow-grind. A section of large PVC will work for the curved surface. Some use paper wheels to simply polish out the hollow-grind, but I find more tendency towards edge rolls (when shot into tissues) that way than when the hollow-grind has the slight 'micro-bevel' on a hollow-grind; which results from finishing the edge on a curved surface that's SLIGHTLY larger in diameter curved than the wheel used for establishing the hollow-grind. If the steel were harder (like that on the hollow-ground Silver Flame) I would polish on the same radius as the hollow-grind.

It's easy to over-do the amount of hollow-grind. Most 3-blades (all I've tested) have steel of modest hardness; low to upper R40's. I've had the best results using 8" or 10" diameter wheels for setting the hollow-grind. Smaller than that, and the hollow-grind edge tends to roll.

Hope that helps a bit,

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

[NDTerminator]

Easy as pie to sharpen 3 blades with a Tru Angle Hone kit or G5 Sportsman's Sharpener.  After either I finish with a leather strop for that final straight razor edge...

[Orion]

Pat:  The gist of it is it's about impossible to get a three-blade head as sharp as a two blade head because of the much larger angle of the cutting edge with a three blade.  In addition to what Ed has suggested, you can also change the bevel of a three-blade head, which is sort of what hollow grinding does.  My hunting partner did it by making his own true-angle type hones which he used to rebevel 160 grain Snuffers.

[AkDan]

That would be interesting ed...Us the pvc and wet dry sandpaper.  Start with say 80 or 100 grit and take it down to 1000 or 1500 as I do on my plane blades and chisels.

I know it works on a flat surface like say a piece of glass (referring to the scary sharp plane blade method).  Never thought to use something as simple as pvc to increase the angles just a bit to getter even more sharper.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

like Mr.Lamb's videobut finish with a leather strap.. I shave hair right off my arm.

[flatlander37]

I have used Charlie Lamb's method and it worked, but there was a recent thread on Snuffers also and I believe they said they use a bench grinder with a medium grit wheel at the factory.  Anyway I used my dad's bench grinder on some WW's and they came out great.  Just another way that might work for you too.

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Dan,

I like to use PVC because I can soften and mold it to whatever curve I want. If you want a longer radius, one not 'standard' for the PVC pipes, just split the pipe in half lengthwise, than warm one piece in the oven (at about 160 degrees F.) unto the PVC is soft and pliable. That only takes a few minutes; watch close and test often to avoid getting it too soft. Remove it and press it firmly over something having the curve you want, smothing it out and holding it in place until it cools. Just pressing it over a section of pipe of the same nominal size will increase the radius some; by making the inner radius the same as the pipe's outer radius. You can then heat and use the other piece over that one to get an even longer radius of curvature; and so forth.

PVC is useful for making lots of things, and I save the 'scraps' for making into flat sheets of PVC; or for shaping into parts for various projects.

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

[deadpool]

I myself dont get what all the fuss is about sharpening the 3 blades, yesterday I got a new batch of 145g snuffers, I was hesitant cuz I never sharpend them before, but followin lambs instructions, insted replaced the file with a coarse,mild and smooth set of stones, swiped each head a few times on each stone, and got them razor ready to hunt and shave afterswards sharp!
spent about 5-6 min on each head

[BobW]

It is pretty easy as long as you don't have garbage WW's to begin with......

[joebuck]

Pat B.... if your using a Snuffer Tamer and BH keeps skipping across the files not grabbing and not removing in a uniform state, trying heating the edge with a torch to blue color. This softens the metal and the files will grab the head. Then you can use lighter and lighter pressure to get a very sharp serrated edge by flipping each stroke.


Dr. Ed...FYI...Silver Flames possess a Convex edge not a Hollow Ground (Concave) as you posted. Also German Kinectics promote a Convex head for supperior bone busting penetration.  :D

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Joey,

Thanks for that 'heads up'. I just check it out on his web site and Markus has, indeed, changed the bevel of the Silver Flames. All the initial models I tested; and all the Silver Flames I have; have the hollow ground edge. This was one of the aspects Markus and I discussed after the initial testing, but I was unaware the change had been made. The 'edge concerns' were solely with the tip bends and breaks. The hollow-grind left a very thin edge at the tip, and the change in the bevel should strengthen this aspect of the BH substantially.

Does this make my hollow-ground Silver Flames collector's items? Might have to move them all into my 'retirement fund'!    

Thanks again,

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

[joebuck]

your welcome Doc, i enjoy reading your posts and observe from your writings you are a stickler for "just the facts" so I thought you would need to know of the change. Heres a question I can not understand. 'How is a german CNC machine putting that Convex edge on? Markus told me when he recieves the head from his manufacture, he takes the microscopic wire burr off with elephant leather and compound...Thats it...So i guess the CNC router tool is Concave to produce a Convex shoulder/edge? I can ALMOST get mine back to original sharpness of his with of coarse straight edge shoulders.

[tippit]

Joey, If I am reading you right----you are heating the edge on a broadhead to Blue Color.  That temperature brings the edge to 560-590 degrees F.  You just lost all the temper hardness...leaving soft steel.  It sure will be easy to have a file cut it, but there won't be any hardness to keep an edge...tippit

Temper Color Chart:
 http://www.anvilfire.com/index.php?bodyName=/FAQs/temper_colors.htm&titleName=Temper%20Colors%20:%20anvilfire.com

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Markus is a true expert on the capabilities of the CNC process in metalworking. It appears that one can acomplish virtually anything the mind can imagine - but at a cost. No doubt that Markus has redefined what "quality" means in broadhead steel!

With the high hardness of the steel, I suspect it would take a bit more work to resharpen the new edge by hand; as opposed to the old hollow-ground bevel. Those were easy to resharpen. That not withstanding, I'm glad Markus made that change. Knowing his attention to details and committment to quality, I'll bet Markus did a bunch of edge-bevel testing after I had those bent and chipped tips. I had initial concerns about the thin hollow-ground edges holding up all along the blade's edge but, other than at the tip, none were every damaged. In the new configuration, that edge should be near bomb proof!

Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow

[joebuck]

Tippit indeed your reading me right.....i am not schooled at all in the art of tempering steel. But I can get a WW and Snuffers smoking (no pun intended) sharp. Razor Sharp. I have shot thorough several wild boar hogs with 2 inch shields coast to coast and they still shave hair. i shot a 450# black bear coast to coast..( years ago.it still cuts hair. I have been heating my snuffer edges when Roger R first came out with them. I have resharpened these heads again and again back to sharpness. I am not reading a scale in a book to tell me right or wrong....I'm shooting critters!..Heating these types of heads for me has really worked. I'm really not concerned about the temper hardness of a head. I am more concerned with how razor sharp i can get the head to go 20" through tissue. This is a tool for short work. if i lose temper hardness so what? i have never had a head to fail either and thats with Roththaar, Delta and now Magnus. IMO Magnus would sell more heads if they made them (softer) easier to sharpen. Remember I'm not sharpening a BH like a knife that will cut and cut and cut lets say 1000" ( butchering a deer). You would want temper for that type of blade. But instead i'm sharpening a blade that is not of best metal that I'm flaking a burr off with a file ( Snuffer Tamer). This blade will only travel at most 12" to 24" through water made tissue then bury in the ground/sand and get dull. I do not need temper of a knife.However I would sharpen a Razorcap different since the metal is IMO better quality. So you stated "if you take the hardness out, you will lose your edge?" I totally disagree.


From the animals I have shot the last 20 years, the heated snuffer and WW has been very serrated razor sharp on the other side coming out. let the temper police slap my hand but i'll stick too experience.

[breid]

I use a medium diamond sharpener (the long flat ones) and then go to a fine and ultra fine sandstone sharpener.  The Montecs are hard to sharpen, so I called them and they recommend all diamond, but i can't afford that, so I start with a diamond and work that way.  You can get them real sharp, I you can shave with them.
Just remember that some heads are harder than others and may take more time.

[joebuck]

Doc Ed.. you mention above a very good point. I might have been the first to point that out here on this site a month ago. The steel used for these silver flames is defintely different than the majority of two bladed "traditional" heads we have in the states. I would not mind paying more for a head made in US of that quality. Most people on here do not understand how sharp these german heads are until they have bought one

[Pat B.]

If I may, what the heck is a Snuffer Tamer ?
Thanks for all the input..

A few posts back JC mentioned a method that "Joey" shared with him for sharpening Shuffers that made them "a close second to the Silver Flames".. Does anyone know what this method might be ???