Hard maple for belly wood?

[John Malone]

Hey guys, I'm going to the hard wood store tomorrow and they have some hard maple at a decent price. Is it good for belly wood, backed board bows? I want some hickory for backing strips but they also have quarter sawn white oak, what about that for backing or belly woods. Wanting to try some different stuff but to don't want to waste money on marginal wood as BMorv calls it.

[BMorv]

If you can find some maple with straight grain that's definitely a contender for backings.  The 2 tri lams I'm working right now have maple for the backs, and I'll let you know how it goes.  In my research before starting these bows I found a bunch of guys that love to use maple backings, even with ipe bellies, and in every form/style of bow you could imagine.  And these are experienced bowyers, Mikkeswick, Marc St Louis, and a few others....
I've used it in cores of tri lams with good results.  I've seen many examples of it used in belly's and selfbows, although I haven't tried it myself.  I wouldn't consider maple a marginal bow wood, it is a bow wood.   It's strong in tension and is physically light in weight.  Kenny M did a "redneck test" of the lams he offers a few months back and maple had the best stiffness/weight ratio.  I want to do a maple/maple/maple tri lam one of these days.   

[John Malone]

Thanks BMorv, I thought that's what I've read wasn't sure. Ill see if I can find some straight grained stuff while I'm there.

[Bowjunkie]

Sugar/hard maple, hickory, and white oak all make very good backings. I keep all of them here. If I had to make a trilam with the three of them, I'd use maple for the back, white oak for the core, and hickory for the belly. But they're so close, they could be used in any combination with a few adjustments.

When I go to the hardwood store, I look for all three of them, plus cherry, osage, mulberry, walnut, ipe, all sorts of stuff  I look for wood type, but clear wood, ring and grain structure make the ultimate decisions for me. If you don't see something you want, ask. The last time I was at a big hardwood store, I told them what I was making, and that osage is what I really wanted, and he told me they had some at their big warehouse several miles up the road. He was supposed to call me... never did.

[Bowjunkie]

A maple/maple/maple trilam sounds interesting.

I do know one thing about maple that I should pass on... don't use figured/curly maple for the belly. Bad, bad decision on my part. That was 20 years ago and to this day, I've never seen so many frets in a bow belly.

[Wolftrail]

A maple/maple/maple trilam sounds interesting.

I have a Takedown that is actually 4 lams of Maple, it has a 10" power lam kind of like an FG bow.  Its 67" but only 35# but it shoots like the dickens and is smoother than butter.  Its has about 1200 shots thru it.  I'll take this Bow to my Grave.

[BMorv]

And if I may ask a quick question on your topic John, is red maple any good for bows?  It's kinda in between "hard Maple" and "Soft Maple" in weight and strength.   
I have a bunch of that I can harvest.

[Bowjunkie]

Red maple is 'soft maple', but hard and soft maple can vary enough that sometimes, we should evaluate them on a piece by piece basis. Just a few days ago, a very experienced bowyer/gunmaker friend of mine handed me three pieces of maple... a sugar/hard maple, and two red/soft maple full length gun stocks.... as tall as me. It took some effort to get the hard maple off the floor. It felt like lead. It felt like osage or ironwood. The red maple pieces were light as a feather in comparison. I could pick them up with a thumb and one finger. It felt like pine or cedar. The difference was obvious, amazing even. I don't expect there to always be that big of a difference, because a good piece of red maple may feel close to a sugar maple that lacks density, but it was quite obvious THAT day.

I would not use red maple for bows.... well, not for all-wooden bows. I did use it under clear glass as a veneer a few times without issue.

Red maple often exhibits more defined curl/figure than hard/sugar maple, and can be tempting in that regard.

Just some thoughts.

[ty_in_ND]

A maple/maple/maple trilam sounds interesting.

Just out of curiosity, what dimensions would you use for a maple-maple-mape trilam at the ubiquitous 50# @ 28"? I'm sitting on a lot of nice and straight grained hard maple and would consider making one.  I even have some figured maple for the handle!

[Roy from Pa]

64 to 66 tip to tip

1 1/4" wide  at flares, hold that 1 1/4" width out 8 inches past the flares

Then a straight taper to 1/2" at the tips.

Belly lam 5/16th parallel

Core lam 5/32nd at riser, tapered to 3/32nd at tips

Backing 1/8th at riser tapered to 3/32nd at tips

[BMorv]

I would do similar to Roy but a little different. I would make the stack .6” thick with maple.  .25” belly, .2” core, .15” back.  Total taper .004 to .006. 
I would go a little wider with maple like 1.5”. 
I like to go a little wider and a little thicker than I think I need when trying new materials.  Like they always say, you can take off but you can’t put back on.  I have enough 40 lb bows to prove it.

[ty_in_ND]

Very interesting stuff! It'll probably be a while before I attempt it, as I have "A-list" belly woods (osage, ipe, and yew) to get through first for backed bows/trilams. But with how much maple I have, I'm pretty sure I want to do more with it besides backing strips!

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[Roy from Pa]

Ty said... It'll probably be a while before I attempt it, as I have "good" belly woods (osage, ipe, and yew) to get through first for backed bows/trilams. 

Oh you poor baby.

All that wood and no time?

LOL

[BMorv]

And thanks bowjunkie for your explanation on Red maple. 
Sorry John if we got off topic.  It was Roy’s fault

[Roy from Pa]

 

[ty_in_ND]

Oh you poor baby.

All that wood and no time?

LOL

I'm waiting for Leinie's Summer Shandy to go on sale, then I'll be able to get some proper work done 😁

It also wouldn't hurt if it actually started to feel like spring around here, but I saw it was snowing in Pittsburgh yesterday when I was watching a bit of the Twins game. It just seems like this winter doesn't want to end...

I hope John doesn't mind the derailing!

[Roy from Pa]

Spring?

What is that? LOL

Gonna snow here again today...

The cabin fever is getting worse...

[John Malone]

Derail away guy, its good info for future reference.

[ty_in_ND]

Hey John, does your hardwood store sell exotics? If they do, you should see if they have yellowheart (I think it also goes by satinwood and pau amarello). It's a South American wood that is not as dense as ipe and it's not as tough as osage. But it is pretty elastic, so it makes a fine belly for a backed bow or trilam. So, maybe more like dense yew? Anyway, one other positive about it is you can bend it like osage, so flipping the tips or heat bending a thicker piece (like for a backed bow) to get some deflex and reflex is doable!

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[BMorv]

Yellowheart is pretty awesome, but keep in mind it does have it's limits.  I glued up a r/d tri-lam recently with a yellowheart belly and was going for a 65-70 lb bow and it fretted badly across the entire limb, on both limbs.  Granted it was a highly stressed design at a higher weight, I don't think ipe or osage would have done that. 

BUT, put it in the right design and it is a great wood.  I love the color and I can get it for the same price as red oak from the box stores. 
Let me know if you can't find it at a good price and you want to try it John.  I can probably pick you up a board or 2.