Increase Draw length

[McDave]

I assume you’re talking about the 28” Razorback arrow.  I don’t know why a 28” arrow would only be safe drawn to 26 1/2”.  Normally you would think a 28” arrow would be safe if drawn to 27”.  But PSE knows their products better than I do.  I can tell you that those are the same arrows I use in my beginning archery classes with Samick Sage 25# bows, which are very similar to the PSE you are buying.  When I’m demoing shots for the class I commonly draw to my normal draw length of 28”, and some of the students might draw that far too, although most are too young to draw that far.  After many hundreds of shots, we have never had one break, although we have lost a few when students shoot over the backstop into the weeds.  But you have to use your own judgment on that.

Since the 600 Entradas will be over spined for the PSE, it is actually a good thing that you are leaving them at 31”, since that will weaken the spine a little.  Performance may not match the Razorback arrows, but should work fine for form practice.

[McDave]

I was concerned about Starshooter's comment regarding PSE Razorback arrows, because our club teaches a youth course where we use them, and I didn't want us to be doing anything that wasn't safe.  I called Lancaster, where I bought them, and they told me that there was no 26.5” limit on the arrows.  They are made to be shot from bows of 30# or less, and as long as that limit is observed, they can be drawn to the full 28”.

[starshooter]

McDave, my bad I must have gotten that info from another supplier as was seaching around for them. The numbers got muddied up somehow. Of course you
Pull right to the back of the point ( in most cases) .

[starshooter]

Can pull back to the point .. as long as it doesn't exceed the bow's capacity.
Sorry.

[McDave]

 No prob, Charles.  Glad I don't have to start checking everybody's draw length before they shoot those arrows!  What is the max draw length of your PSE bow?

[starshooter]

25# @28". My initial draw when trying it out was 26 1/2" . Natural ingrained anchor point . When I get the arrows I am going to work on isolating my back muscles , hopefully "feel" the anchor and from there always draw and hold at that point no matter what poundage I end up with. Hopefully between 35-40 lbs.. 30 lbs will probably be my final poundage . But I will see ..

[starshooter]

I am now shooting the PSE Razorback 25# recurve along with the smallest diameter
arrows 1000 I have ever seen. So far, it's been good.and fun.The emerging question now is what is my anchor point/ draw length??? I can hold for 4-6 seconds at but at what DL ? Thanks I am anchoring past the corner of my mouth... feel the feathers.

Another question .. what is a "J "draw.??? What does it look like??
I have heard that my "natural"draw length is 26 1/2 ", is it a sin to be using a bow that can be pulled past it's rated capacity? Some bows I hit a wall (stack) others I can pull effortlessly to a draw point say 27" even 28" I d like very much to solve this as it's been troubling me for years. Thanks. 

[McDave]

According to this review, the Razorback can safely be drawn to 30”, so I don’t think you’re going to have any problem with that.

https://targetcrazy.com/archery/gear/recurve/pse-razorback-recurve-takedown-bow-review/

Again, it’s not the bow or your strength that determines your draw length.  If you are drawing the bow correctly, using your back muscles, you won’t be able to draw any further than your actual draw length.  If you are drawing the bow incorrectly, using your arm muscles, you can draw a lightweight bow quite a bit further than your actual draw length.  However, maximum accuracy and consistency occurs when you are drawing the bow correctly, using your back muscles.

If you determined that your natural draw length was 26 1/2” by any method other than by drawing a bow correctly to full draw, then it is only an approximation.  Once you determine your actual draw length, it might change slightly due to training, age, bow weight, etc., but probably not more than 1/2” or so.

The J draw is a concept to help you visualize a draw using back muscles.  It is just a concept, not an actual J.  The J is more or less the path your elbow takes when drawing the bow correctly. As you start to draw the bow, your elbow moves back in more or less of a straight line.  As you get close to full draw, your back muscles contract about as much as they can, you can feel your shoulder blade moving toward your spine, and backward movement of the arrow almost comes to a stop. Even though there is little or no movement of the arrow backward, your elbow continues to move around behind the arrow, which is represented by the bottom of the J.  The J shaped draw is a concept like your elbow closing a door behind you; if it helps you to draw the bow correctly, use it.  If it is just confusing, then don’t worry about it.

From previous posts, I gather that you have put a lot of effort into this over many years.  I commend your tenacity, but you may have gone as far as you can on your own.  I’ll bet that an hour with somebody such as Arne, Rod, or Rick would straighten you out in a hurry, so that might be the next thing you should think about doing.

[starshooter]

Dang straight! Where does Arnie reside? I m from TX. I would nothing than to have just 1 hr of his instruction. Thanks!

[moebow]

Star,  I'm about as far away from you as we can get and still be in the USA.  Northern Minnesota, about an hour driving time from the Canadian border.  IF ever up this way, we can get together if you want.

Arne

[starshooter]

Thanks! I will keep that in mind.

[starshooter]

I am currently working with a 25# recurve  concentrating onmy draw & anchoring.
Starting to like the recurve.. shooting full draw and holding for 5-6 seconds. My anchor point seems to have moved upwards my cheek bone head straight up. Again , I working close into the target .. my bow arm extending straight to the target the grip is
The "V "of my thumb and forefinger. Very easy with  low poundage. I will be submitting another video trailer latter to review and share.
I am thinking after all is done that my final weight will be in the mid to low thirties at my proper DL. I will soon see.Thanks.

[starshooter]

I am shooting with the 25# recurve and skinny carbons . I feel very comfortable drawing & holding at full draw 27". My plan is to fully imprint/ reprogram to that Dl and hold at least 5-10 seconds( longer?)
This morning I shot 5 rounds and the arrows keep landing on the right side of the target  bullseye .Try as I did to align the sight window to the center they flew right of the center by sometimes 10" Am I gripping the bow wrong or is my elbow alignment incomplete? Or the arrows might be too weak for my draw
My son is coming sometime this week and I am gonna get a movie made. I am flummoxed! 

[moebow]

Yep!! Video time.  Arrows hitting to the right could be MANY things.  Many will be quick to suggest spine but that is actually the least probable cause.  SOMETHING in your shot execution is MOST LIKELY the reason.  But at this time, we really need to see not just speculate on descriptions.

Arne

[McDave]

How long you hold at full draw is up to you. Many good shooters snap shoot, meaning they release as soon as they reach full draw. Others hold and aim. In our style of shooting, most people who hold and aim hold for about 2 seconds at full draw. It is hard for me to imagine how you could be very effective hunting if you needed to hold for 5 seconds. However, holding for long periods can be an effective strength building exercise.

What is essential is coming to full draw and anchoring, every time you shoot.

[starshooter]

 
Hope this works.

[moebow]

I see nothing here that really leaps out at me to cause your right hits.  There are some areas I'd critique from an execution stand point but again, nothing that really stands out as a cause of your problem.  I see you are shooting that bow off the shelf, but the Sage is a very center cut bow. Have you tried building out the strike plate a little??  Add a layer or two of something to move the vertical (strike plate) surface to the left and see what happens.

Set the bow up so you can stand behind it and visually line up the string with the center of the limbs with an arrow nocked, on the shelf and against the strike plate.  With an arrow nocked, the position of the point should appear to be JUST to the left of the string. IF it (the point) is to the right or centered on the string, build that strike plate out (thicker) to get that point to the left of the string line.  See if that helps and let us know.

Arne

[starshooter]

Is my elbow aligned? How about the chest expansion? Release ok?
I see that the point disappears behind the riser indicating a 28" draw
Should I discount that as I am working with 25# now? My biggest concern are the shoulder/ back mechanics . I am trying to reprogram and reset the draw. No more short drawing.
The bow is a PSE Heritage . Thanks.

[McDave]

I’ve read enough of Arne’s critiques to know that he can see things most of us can’t.  Based on his comments, and my own observations, you seem to be on the right path.

I can’t tell if you’re using the PSE Razorback arrows, but the fletching looks the same.  These are really thin arrows, and Arne’s comment on maybe needing some strike plate buildout could be on point.  Just add enough thick leather so that the thin arrows are centered about where regular sized arrows would be centered.

I remember that you are an ASL shooter.  Whenever I try shooting an ASL, my arrows go way left.  Whenever one of my ASL shooting buddies tries to shoot a cut past center bow, their arrows go way right.  One of them likes to shoot both, and builds out the strike plates of his cut past center bows to a ridiculous degree to get his arrows to hit the center.  I’ve just decided I have to pick one or the other, and not try to shoot both.  If you plan to continue to shoot ASL’s, you may just have to accept this, and may even have some trouble with shooting to the left when you switch back.  It’s just a mental adjustment; nothing to do with your form or the bow.

[moebow]

Is my elbow aligned? How about the chest expansion? Release ok?
I see that the point disappears behind the riser indicating a 28" draw
Should I discount that as I am working with 25# now? My biggest concern are the shoulder/ back mechanics . I am trying to reprogram and reset the draw. No more short drawing.
The bow is a PSE Heritage . Thanks.

You have a very static release, which while not necessarily "wrong" (many shoot very well with it!!) I am not a fan.  IMO a shooter cannot REALLY expand while still maintaining that string hand static (non moving) on the face.  In order to keep the hand from moving, a shooter must flex muscles in the front of the body to stop movement.  Doing that either kills or at least neutralizes back tension, kind of making it ineffective.  AGAIN! MY opinion and many really do shoot well with a static release!

I'll point out though the "shock wave" that you can see running through your body during the release.  That is caused by stopping the string hand from moving and really is an unnecessary reaction to the shot.

So to answer your questions directly; elbow OK at full draw, no chest expansion, release marginal due to the static nature.  You MAY or MAY NOT be using BT but it looks like it is negated at the point of release.

All this is based on my way of teaching and shooting. There other very legitimate techniques but they don't generally "play well together" or in a mix and match conglomeration.

Arne